So, about that Karma leak...

First Riot Post
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Healurownbum

Senior Member

03-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coalmania View Post
^ Oh yeah!?!?

RAGEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Eh im trying to bait some reds thats not going to help


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YuriSwine

Junior Member

03-09-2013

Welll...I am quite saddend by this i mean i can understand changeing her looks and and appernce but i throughly enjoy her as she is play style and kit wise. Changing her kit means i have to now learn to play her again. As well as the fact that since so few players played her when i played her and since i knew what i was doing i had quite an advantage since noone else really played her they didnt really know what to expect to come from me. Overall this is a sad sad day for me


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Healurownbum

Senior Member

03-09-2013

I do find it weird they revealed her remake two days ago talked abt it. Let the peep.....! hit the fan.. (hur hur) and then went all quiet. I would rly love to see them abit more involved in this all. Give us abit more. Is it cause of how this thread blew up in ppl not liking it?


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Albatrosspro

Senior Member

03-09-2013

I'd pay to see Karma leaking....


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Healurownbum

Senior Member

03-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Albatrosspro View Post
I'd pay to see Karma leaking....
Get out.. Now.


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Voidophile

Junior Member

03-09-2013

Hi Riot team, just saying I love what you've done with Karma and how you've "advanced" her story more than just press the restart button on her.

I'm also glad you decided to give players the chance to buy her before the relaunch. Sure some selfish fans want the traditional skin all to themselves, but as a newer player, I never bought Karma due to never being given the chance to try her out. I've finally gotten a hold of her and looking forward to the changes you'll make to her (she's pretty difficult to play...)

I'm a little sad about the fans and sleek dress she wears as I really enjoyed that design, however you are right about it not suiting her character anymore. Though I thought it would've been really smart to reference her fans by adding them to a belt or something on her vintage skin.

@RiotAmes - Please subject us to your fanfiction! I loved reading about the characters I played and their lives in the Journal of Justice and sad it's not on anymore. It doesn't have to be cannon, it'd be nice and interesting! (Also I don't want to resort to finding good fanfics on fanfiction.net).


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Healurownbum

Senior Member

03-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voidophile View Post
Hi Riot team, just saying I love what you've done with Karma and how you've "advanced" her story more than just press the restart button on her.

I'm also glad you decided to give players the chance to buy her before the relaunch. Sure some selfish fans want the traditional skin all to themselves, but as a newer player, I never bought Karma due to never being given the chance to try her out. I've finally gotten a hold of her and looking forward to the changes you'll make to her (she's pretty difficult to play...)

I'm a little sad about the fans and sleek dress she wears as I really enjoyed that design, however you are right about it not suiting her character anymore. Though I thought it would've been really smart to reference her fans by adding them to a belt or something on her vintage skin.

@RiotAmes - Please subject us to your fanfiction! I loved reading about the characters I played and their lives in the Journal of Justice and sad it's not on anymore. It doesn't have to be cannon, it'd be nice and interesting! (Also I don't want to resort to finding good fanfics on fanfiction.net).
No offense ment, but can you rly tell alrdy that her dress and fans dont fit her anymore without the new lore? Sure a red some what explained but still seems thin.

*edit or im just that much against it this might be true. I rly love the fact they wanna evolve her make her better. But to me so far she didnt get better for it but worse. She become a average Jane Doe, and thats what got me so badly. Now she rly is her own character so very special. But i alrdy been over that a couple times


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Mr Fisti

Senior Member

03-09-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
It's case-by-case, mostly depending on if the personality or theme has little going on overall. Many champs are fine here, some will need heavier lifting.
Just don't change ma heimy too radically... as an avid heimer player, I like his current visuals and stats.... except perhaps his movement speed xD


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Shinokami54

Junior Member

03-09-2013

TL;DR: Responding to the red posts with how I view things. Not really digging where they've gone with Karma, and disregarding that, not entirely sure they were even successful at doing what they've stated was their goals with Karma. However, the why's of it are really more important than this pretty much worthless TL;DR statement, and the why's are below.

Will freely admit I haven't read all 215 pages of this thread, so I'm certain much of what I say will say has been said already. But after two days of mulling it over, I still feel the need to make my statements regarding the issue, regardless of whether or not they'll just be lost in the hundreds of pages. Also, I might jump around a bit and apologize for any spelling/grammatical errors. I work nights normally, and it's well past the time I usually go to sleep. So fairly tired.

As I go through the various red posts, I start to fear for Karma. I understand the need for an update, both in terms of graphics and gameplay. Her kit, although fun and unique, wasn't really well suited for any kind of consistent success in a competitive arena. If you're just playing a game for fun (and solely fun), she's definitely worth it. If you only find fun in victory, she's borderline worthless. Unfortunately, due to the nature of this game, that means that the latter of those two is significantly more common than the former.

So, I have no qualms with her kit being remade in addition to the visual update, because from a business perspective, it's definitely an investment that could pay off, especially once you make a skin of hers limited edition (bound to drive sales up quite a bit, even if it's free to a portion of the populace).

However, the question marks pop up immediately after reading the first post. I'm not sure if it's just poorly worded, but by opening with saying "But before we dig into it, there’s something you should probably know first," it's kind of like saying "We know we're going to anger many of you, we get that. But here, let's try to appease you first with this candy. It's free!" Not a good tone to set for the thread, and I feel was the first stumbling block that a bunch of Karma fans ran into. It feels like you knew that there was going to be backlash from her "two fans" (btw, really bad pun. I always applaud the attempt of using a pun, but this one is not really well suited based on how the rest of the red posts have been made. Again, poor tone set throughout.), but didn't think it mattered enough.

In addition to that, instead of leaving it as her default skin (and it's already thematically significantly different from her current default, which is ok), it was stated that you're taking a new skin, making that her default, and giving us "vintage" Karma like you're doing us a favor. Again, it kind of makes Karma fans feel as if you're again stating "Hey, we know you won't like it, but you'll just have to live it. Here, have some candy, it's free!" It may not be your intent, but even after re-reading it multiple times, I just can't get anything else out of it.

However, if you disregard the tone of the announcement of the two skins, the skins themselves are really a slap in the face. I understand the need for sexy skins, I do. I'm a guy, I like fanservice. Won't deny it. There's plenty of skins I've bought because they were sexy. However, there's a difference between optional skins being sexy, and the default skin being sexy. For certain champions, it's not an issue. Ahri, Elise, Miss Fortune, etc, it's fine. Even others that don't make a mention of being somewhat of a seductress, if their lore doesn't contradict it, that's fine. Others, it doesn't work for, and ironically, those are some of my favorite champions to play.

Leona, Quinn, Diana, Irelia, Karma, Kayle, Lulu, Riven, Tristana, Vi (Leona and Vi are arguably my two favorite champions), none of their default skins are really what I would call sexy. Most of them easily fulfill the beautiful description, some have outfits that accentuate body parts (but not to an excessive degree), others are well drawn but I won't call beautiful because it makes me feel like I'm a pedo for doing so. Again, make sexy skins for any of those (though again, some are more questionable due to how old they appear to be, even if they are older in actuality), but by making their defaults a sexier version, it kind of goes against their perceived personalities. The "Vintage" Karma skin is fine (though it's significantly different from her current default, as she's more of a politician that fights now instead of a warrior who happens to be a politician. But that seems to be what you're going for, so it works), but the fact that it won't be her default, and that a new sexier version is going to be her default, is not really helping your case that you're trying to evolve her rather than change her. Unless by evolve you mean make her more worldly, and if so, she'll probably get more action with her new default than her "Vintage" skin. I'm sure you'll understand the implication of that last sentence. And for those who say the new version isn't that sexy, it is for Karma. Even with her two optional skins, the one she shows the most skin in, sun goddess, is still extremely demure in comparison to other sexy skins. With the new default, one could say the significant amount of leg shown as well as the cut of her top (very much teasing some of her breasts when looked at from the side) are a significant departure from that. However, and I must emphasize this, I have no issues with her new default skin aside from it being her default skin. Give her a sexy skin, that's fine, just don't make it her default.

Later on when it's mentioned that fans are the only price being paid (red post 18), you seem to be missing that it's not the only thing being paid. Personality, outfit, weaponry, everything is changing. It's not just the removal of her fans. Or, were you again using the terrible pun, and saying that losing the players who like her as she is is the only price being paid? Because if losing the players who currently like her is the only price to make a new champion that more people will like, you are absolutely correct in your assessment. She will be more popular. She just won't be Karma. As a sidenote, this is one reason why your pun was terribly used. It opens up avenues of bleh thought processes that I would rather remain closed, and prefer to be allowed to stayed hesitantly hopeful that she has evolved rather than been completely changed.

Past that, I actually think the emphasis on dragons is a great idea. I do. It's part of the Ionian crest, and the only Ionian (specifically Ionian, not someone who's allied with them or happens to live there) champion that I can find a dragon on is Lee Sin, and that's probably more a reference to Bruce Lee (as it is his Dragon Fist skin) than it is to Ionia. My problem is that it doesn't look like she has dragons. When I first saw the image, I thought it was just swirls that were a very poorly drawn yin-yang symbol, then after reading some posts looked again, this time seeing birds (IronStylus must be taking over my mind or something >.<). After actually zooming in massively using one particular angle (and not the others), I can kind of see them being dragons, but it's still not really definitive, and I would never have guessed they were dragons without reading the posts.

Probably my biggest qualm overall is just the complete change in personality focus. I actually really like RiotAmes' explanation. I am perfectly ok with that being the route being taken. I just don't see his explanation being carried out in any one else's post. I think that being less passive and having more conviction to act is fine, I even think that updating her dress to more of a battlegarb with pants and vest/coat thingy is fine. Not using fans as her primary weapon is fine (though as mentioned in the post by Voidophile, they really should have been left on her belt or elsewhere). My issue is that she has to be "badass." No. Just no. This, by far, is where the divide has been caused. To quote Inigo Montoya, "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." The degree to which you are pushing this side of her completely destroys everything about her by itself. The rest doesn't help, but it's understandable and workaround-able (not sure that's even a word, but going with it).

Karma is all about balance. It has been mentioned time and time and time again, by fans, by riot, by lore, by whatever you can find. She is the political leader that will also fight. She's just as comfortable at a political summit as she is on the battlefield. By saying that you're "evolving" her personality to being more battle-oriented, and then saying that she doesn't need her fans because she is becoming more enlightened, is a massive oxymoron. Spiritually speaking, if she was becoming more enlightened, she would see that what is here in the world is all relative, and in the long run, meaningless. There are very few religions that are centered solely on things in this world, and even the more warlike religions are mostly due to appeasing their gods, not themselves. So if she is becoming more enlightened, why wouldn't she become even less combat oriented? Not that she would shirk her duties, but saying she's been affected by the war and that it's taking a toll on her, thus making her more tenacious in battle, leveling even more power to bear, then turning around and saying she is becoming more enlightened and has an indomitable spirit (which is cracking, obviously, by her completely changing herself, and thus not indomitable), I'm not really seeing where you're going. It's like your trying to take oil and water, mix them, and then ignoring science and expecting them to mingle together in a perfect balance rather than constantly trying to separate from each other due to their compositions.

So, while before she was for all intents and purposes a badass politician (be honest, if you saw any politician decide to take up MMA and be successful, you'd call him/her a badass), that's not badass enough. Now she has to be a badass action star. It's not acceptable that she is a solid rock, fighting for her people in every conceivable battlefield (both the League and other political arenas), never breaking. She has to be the person running everywhere, kicking ass and taking names. Maybe it really is just the league of Draven, and all champions have to be showman executioners.

In the end, I can't argue with what you're doing, I really can't. I don't agree with it, but I can't argue with it. From the only perspective that really matters (you are a business), you can't really do anything else. If you want her to be more popular, you have to gut her, you have to remake her entirely. If you want her to be more popular, you can't keep her what she is. And thus, you have to make her more desirable (in more ways than one, which is the only justification I can see for her new default skin).

All I ask, is that you don't try to tell us that she's still Karma. Because what you've described thus far isn't her. It's not an evolved her. It's not a upgraded her. It's a new person with an old name. And if she was enlightened before, you're pretty much saying now that she wasn't. Because if she was, she wouldn't have been so completely wrong in terms of personality that you felt the need to gut her. But again, it's a business, and you need to make money.

I will remain hesitantly hopeful (barely, this thread hasn't helped at all, but I'm trying), and hope that the new lore (once released) and the PBE version that goes up won't confirm most of my fears. I won't say I'm a die-hard Karma fan, but she's a very enjoyable champ with a unique feel to her. And it saddens me to see her go.


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Calypsx

Senior Member

03-09-2013

Ah Riot, I see you took one of your cool and original characters and just threw them away.

Instead you replaced her with some generic mage who shoots magic from their hands (No other magic user does that right?) Who looks like some sort of Mortal Kombat reject, who relies on their secret "INNA POWAAAA?!?!?!" to fight .(Again, no other magic user relies on that either right?)

Creativity was lost here in turn for something incredibly cliche.

This was your worst rework yet, because you decided to hit the delete button on a character people learned to love over the past 2 years. A skill rework would of been just fine, but not the entire character/personality swap.