So, about that Karma leak...

First Riot Post
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HarryOrunitia

Senior Member

03-08-2013

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Originally Posted by BlackEpistle View Post
Can you please consider why? Ionia was a very spiritual and asian influenced faction. A lot of "spiritual enlightenment" in that area is based on martial arts, meditation and physical training. I don't remember the exact principles to be honest but someone explained a few of the philosophies to me.

For the "Enlightened One" to have martial training isn't exactly surprising in a society like that. In fact, it should be expected. Thematically, she fits better now then before. After all, what Ionian character doesn't have any martial background?(I heard Varus was Ionian but not sure about this one).
She was more of a meditative/spiritual type. Growing up she focused on the spiritual side, not the physical side. I don't think she ever even planned to go on a "battlefield" in her youth. When she finally decided to fight, that's the strength she decided to use, the power of her mind, her self control, not martial arts, the study of which was never even hinted at in her original lore. And she chose her fans as her weapon because they were something from her past, they reminded her of her childhood.

Syndra, while being the moral opposite of Karma, is a Ionian character who focused her training on the magic/spiritual side, and as you know she doesn't look athletic at all.

Plus, if every Ionian character had to be some kind of martial artist, it would get old pretty fast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackEpistle View Post
On top of that, no one has seen her in game, maybe she pulls out one of her fans in her recall and fans her face.
That is something I would definitely appreciate, something that if they haven't already done, I would definitely ask for. The reds seemed pretty clear about the whole fan thing, saying that they just aren't part of her anymore, so it's pretty safe to assume that they aren't part of any animation for now. I might be wrong of course and I sure hope so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackEpistle View Post
And to be honest, I find her new dress far more elegant then her prior. Her prior dress was silly more then pretty. This new one is actually more stylized and elegant. There is no cleavage, all it shows is a bit of leg, which makes sense for a battle dress. She should have another long boot for her open leg, but I think the exposed leg is for when whatever makes her glow goes off, in one of the pictures it is glowing.
This is mostly a matter of taste. The argument that "it makes more sense" for a battle dress doesn't really work though because LoL is full of ladies with impratical clothes, as long as it fits their fighting style (think Sona). Since Karma also is a long range mage, I think it's perfectly fine for her to have an impractical, even silly, dress. It was the subject of one of her jokes after all, and it was part of the appeal for many of us. It definitely showed personality.


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Immortal Saibot

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03-08-2013

I am never not excited for reworks.
EVELYNN MAY NOT HAVE BEEN AS GOOD AS SHE WAS SEASON 1. BUT SHES DEFINITELY MORE FUN.
Anyways, both a rework on the kit and looks. and from what I can see, she's lookin fine.
GOD AS SOON AS THIS REWORK COMES OUT. MY NEXT 20 GAMES ARE GONNA CONSIST OF KARMA AND ME USING HER.


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Circuit Bear

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Senior Member

03-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryOrunitia View Post
She was more of a meditative/spiritual type. Growing up she focused on the spiritual side, not the physical side. I don't think she ever even planned to go on a "battlefield" in her youth. When she finally decided to fight, that's the strength she decided to use, the power of her mind, her self control, not martial arts, the study of which was never even hinted at in her original lore. And she chose her fans as her weapon because they were something from her past, they reminded her of her childhood.

Syndra, while being the moral opposite of Karma, is a Ionian character who focused her training on the magic/spiritual side, and as you know she doesn't look athletic at all.

Plus, if every Ionian character had to be some kind of martial artist, it would get old pretty fast.



That is something I would definitely appreciate, something that if they haven't already done, I would definitely ask for. The reds seemed pretty clear about the whole fan thing, saying that they just aren't part of her anymore, so it's pretty safe to assume that they aren't part of any animation for now. I might be wrong of course and I sure hope so.



This is mostly a matter of taste. The argument that "it makes more sense" for a battle dress doesn't really work though because LoL is full of ladies with impratical clothes, as long as it fits their fighting style (think Sona). Since Karma also is a long range mage, I think it's perfectly fine for her to have an impractical, even silly, dress. It was the subject of one of her jokes after all, and it was part of the appeal for many of us. It definitely showed personality.
... A civil post? Holy ****. Alright, my turn.

Syndra is a good counter example except she did leave Ionian and thus turned her back on their teachers and ways of life. She doesn't even really walk now, so it wouldn't be surprising for her muscle build to deteriorate after she left Ionian, Karma on the other hand is expected to be a leader of their culture.

Also, you are assuming I was saying she was a blackbelt or something, what I was referring to is more like what you see a lot of strategy game organizations pushing their members to do, which is around an hour to two hour of physical exercise. For Karma I think it could be more then that, something like an hour of martial training and an hour of yoga to help clear and sharpen the mind. Perhaps closer to 2-3 hours of martial training, it wouldn't really cut that much into her spiritual, magical or leadership training too much. If their culture is like I understand it to be, it actually would be part of the path to enlightenment.

Riot did mention there were trying to evolve and better define each faction. It was in a post about Quinn. So Riot might be trying to define Ionian specifically in this light, which I disagree about being boring. If you get tired of Ionian characters, you can go to the rogue characters or the other factions, if you get tired of those factions, you can go back to Ionian, personal opinion though.

As for the fans, I thought that they were talking about inside her kit. I was sort of expecting them to keep some references in her new kit with say her recall or taunt, but that might just be my hopeful thinking. If they don't, I will be dissappointed since I see no reason to not make it part of her recall or something like that.


I'll give you the dress is personal opinion, but they did give a free skin with her old style out, I know it is a combat dress instead of the.. I dunno what to call her classic dress, but it is something.


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SplendidSorrow

Senior Member

03-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryOrunitia View Post
She was more of a meditative/spiritual type. Growing up she focused on the spiritual side, not the physical side. I don't think she ever even planned to go on a "battlefield" in her youth. When she finally decided to fight, that's the strength she decided to use, the power of her mind, her self control, not martial arts, the study of which was never even hinted at in her original lore. And she chose her fans as her weapon because they were something from her past, they reminded her of her childhood.

Syndra, while being the moral opposite of Karma, is a Ionian character who focused her training on the magic/spiritual side, and as you know she doesn't look athletic at all.

Plus, if every Ionian character had to be some kind of martial artist, it would get old pretty fast.
I'm going to point out that with most eastern martial arts are deeply rooted in spirituality, self control, etc. She may not be a martial artist on the level of master yi, or Lee sin, but that does not mean she did not practice, or learn that in her journey of mastering herself. It would actually seem rather out of place if she didn't, considering the society.


Quote:
This is mostly a matter of taste. The argument that "it makes more sense" for a battle dress doesn't really work though because LoL is full of ladies with impratical clothes, as long as it fits their fighting style (think Sona). Since Karma also is a long range mage, I think it's perfectly fine for her to have an impractical, even silly, dress. It was the subject of one of her jokes after all, and it was part of the appeal for many of us. It definitely showed personality.
It was a terrible dress. There was nothing remotely good about said dress. I like pencil skirts and dresses on women and that one was just plain ugly. As far as practicality of clothing? I'm not sure there is another female in LoL who wears clothing that prevents them from moving. Its not impractical in the 'my armor only covers my nipples' manner but in the 'I can't actually move' manner. It was terrible, yes it was part of her joke but that doesn't make it any less terrible both in concept and ascetics.


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Afrocalypse

Senior Member

03-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calypsx View Post
Attachment 630838 I'm sorry but this is Karma, and she's so awesome with her fans, and the cherry blossoms are beautiful. Her poise, her grace, her elegance.... Everything, she's an original character, and I haven't seen anyone like here in other form of media... Also I like people who wear robes, the league doesn't have enough robed characters. Those niche characters are what really makes this game shine, and this game has so few of them, why would you take that away.

Attachment 630839 This on the other hand is your generic mage who shoots magic out of her hands, wearing some battle loincloth, while also showing similarities to other champions already in the game. Might as well be an Irelia skin. While from what we know she's just another character who says "I NEED TO FIND MY INNA POWAAA?!?!" Pretty much like every other magic user in this game.

The two are nothing alike, Can't this just be a whole new character Riot? I would like to keep the character I've grown to love over the past 2 years intact.
I agree for the most part. Both could be great champions, (It's more my personal taste that I find the second one to be more 'generic') but one shouldn't be 'deleted' for the other.


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HarryOrunitia

Senior Member

03-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackEpistle View Post
... A civil post? Holy ****. Alright, my turn.

Syndra is a good counter example except she did leave Ionian and thus turned her back on their teachers and ways of life. She doesn't even really walk now, so it wouldn't be surprising for her muscle build to deteriorate after she left Ionian, Karma on the other hand is expected to be a leader of their culture.

Also, you are assuming I was saying she was a blackbelt or something, what I was referring to is more like what you see a lot of strategy game organizations pushing their members to do, which is around an hour to two hour of physical exercise. For Karma I think it could be more then that, something like an hour of martial training and an hour of yoga to help clear and sharpen the mind. Perhaps closer to 2-3 hours of martial training, it wouldn't really cut that much into her spiritual, magical or leadership training too much. If their culture is like I understand it to be, it actually would be part of the path to enlightenment.
While this makes sense, you also have to realize that character design especially in this kind of game should be a lot more direct and it shouldn't require for the players to imagine parts of a character's background just to fill the blanks left by poor design choices. If you see a character with an athletic body and a fighter posture, the immediate reaction would be to think that that character is some sort of hand-to-hand fighter. Then you read their kit, or maybe try playing them and see that they're pretty much the exact opposite. The result is just sort of confusing. This is one of the issues I have with the rework, and it's definitely something that would turn me off of it even if it were a completely new champion, but maybe it's just me.

Still, even if one could justify her new body type with the character's asian inspired background, it would still not explain why someone like Karma, a long ranged mage, would be taunting her enemies like this: http://riot-web-static.s3.amazonaws....k/Karma_SS.jpg

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackEpistle View Post
Riot did mention there were trying to evolve and better define each faction. It was in a post about Quinn. So Riot might be trying to define Ionian specifically in this light, which I disagree about being boring. If you get tired of Ionian characters, you can go to the rogue characters or the other factions, if you get tired of those factions, you can go back to Ionian, personal opinion though.
I understand what Riot is trying to do, but I don't think Karma's original design should be the price to pay for their lack of attention in defining the various factions in the past. They could've had new Ionian champions for example. Going back and trying to make Karma Ionia's Darius just seems sort of lazy to me. Also, they could've found a different way to make her look and feel more Ionian without destroying her personality in the process.

I'm not even sure Karma was so unsuccessful at representing Ionia: Ionia was already my favorite faction because of her. If her rework is a hint of what Ionia really is like, I'm not sure I'm much of a fan anymore. It's too close to the classic stereotypical representations of Asian cultures in western media, just not as unique and interesting as before.

Yes, I could go play other characters of course, but that is exactly the same thing I could say to anyone who found the original Karma boring. "Go play someone else!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackEpistle View Post
As for the fans, I thought that they were talking about inside her kit. I was sort of expecting them to keep some references in her new kit with say her recall or taunt, but that might just be my hopeful thinking. If they don't, I will be dissappointed since I see no reason to not make it part of her recall or something like that.
Well, this is something we'll never know for sure until a red confirms, or until she's released on PBE... So for now, fingers crossed!


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Circuit Bear

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Senior Member

03-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryOrunitia View Post
While this makes sense, you also have to realize that character design especially in this kind of game should be a lot more direct and it shouldn't require for the players to imagine parts of a character's background just to fill the blanks left by poor design choices. If you see a character with an athletic body and a fighter posture, the immediate reaction would be to think that that character is some sort of hand-to-hand fighter. Then you read their kit, or maybe try playing them and see that they're pretty much the exact opposite. The result is just sort of confusing. This is one of the issues I have with the rework, and it's definitely something that would turn me off of it even if it were a completely new champion, but maybe it's just me.

Still, even if one could justify her new body type with the character's asian inspired background, it would still not explain why someone like Karma, a long ranged mage, would be taunting her enemies like this: http://riot-web-static.s3.amazonaws....k/Karma_SS.jpg



I understand what Riot is trying to do, but I don't think Karma's original design should be the price to pay for their lack of attention in defining the various factions. They could've had new Ionian champions for example. Going back and trying to make Karma Ionia's Darius just seems sort of lazy to me. Also, they could've found a different way to make her look and feel more Ionian without destroying her personality in the process.

I'm not even sure Karma was so unsuccessful at representing Ionia: Ionia was already my favorite faction because of her. If her rework is a hint of what Ionia really is like, I'm not sure I'm much of a fan anymore. It's too close to the classic stereotypical representations of Asian cultures in western media, just not as unique and interesting as before.



Well, this is something we'll never know for sure until a red confirms, or until she's released on PBE... So for now, fingers crossed!

Okay, I have to give you the "we shouldn't have to analyze" statement, personally, I "like" the idea, but for most people I can see the problem.

As for the taunt... okay I got nothing for that. I could come up with a half assed response but this conversation is better then that.

As for remaking her rather then a new char, this one I actually have a response to. This is the Leader of Ionia, if there are inconsistencies or lore gaps or if she is a lacking char who is unnoticeable in comparison to other chars and doesn't stand out particularly as a leader, it creates a bit of a hole that affects the rest of the faction. Personally, she never stood out to me, but I also have my audio a bit low so I can hear my music, but of all the leader characters, she felt the less... well... authoritative? Mind you, I am very picky on leadership characters.

The only way I feel it could make sense for their desired image of Ionia to keep old Karma is to make her "step down" in the Lore for a new leader.

This is all personal opinion though, not fact or statement of finality, just my analysis.

As for the representation of Ionia, Ionia felt unstable to me, what karma was, in comparison to the ninjas and Irelia and them felt really off. A leader who was so very very different from her subordinates? Usually you follow someone with the same ideals and a strong personality. I honestly think she needed to either better fit Ionia, or Ionia needed to change to better fit her, but all in all, this is the easier right, whether or not that is the better route, I don't know.

Though, until I see her new lore and new ingame personality, I won't say she even changed that much. All we really know, from my understanding, is that she is no longer using fans, her posture is more solid, in your face(ish) and she is in a more combat oriented style, rather then her elegant style prior.

Hopefully they still keep her elegant and wise spirit, with this rework, who knows until we see ingame. and the lore changes


And in response to the very fair statement on how "if I don't like karma I can play other chars." Honestly.. I have, I want to love karma, but I'm a overly logical person. I look at her kit, then other peoples and I can't play her with a good concience. I know other people do, but anything she can do currently, often someone else can do better. Part of the reason for my excitement is that I hope she will be more... viable I guess so I can play her happily. She was my first support char, and I do want to love her.


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SplendidSorrow

Senior Member

03-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryOrunitia View Post
Still, even if one could justify her new body type with the character's asian inspired background, it would still not explain why someone like Karma, a long ranged mage, would be taunting her enemies like this: http://riot-web-static.s3.amazonaws....k/Karma_SS.jpg
With Karma's current kit I really really really have a hard time thinking of her as a long ranged mage.

Quote:
I understand what Riot is trying to do, but I don't think Karma's original design should be the price to pay for their lack of attention in defining the various factions in the past. They could've had new Ionian champions for example. Going back and trying to make Karma Ionia's Darius just seems sort of lazy to me. Also, they could've found a different way to make her look and feel more Ionian without destroying her personality in the process.

I'm not even sure Karma was so unsuccessful at representing Ionia: Ionia was already my favorite faction because of her. If her rework is a hint of what Ionia really is like, I'm not sure I'm much of a fan anymore. It's too close to the classic stereotypical representations of Asian cultures in western media, just not as unique and interesting as before.
They could have done another character...BUT...Karma is not a terribly popular character, and they were already reworking everything else with her, why not take the opportunity to rework that?

The only thing that is not a classic stereotypical representation of asian culture in Karma currently is her dress...and even then one could equate it to a tight kimono in some regards.


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BIID

Senior Member

03-08-2013

GUYS!!

Karma is the first BLACK CHAMPION in league!!!

CELEBRATES!!


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HarryOrunitia

Senior Member

03-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackEpistle View Post
Okay, I have to give you the "we shouldn't have to analyze" statement, personally, I "like" the idea, but for most people I can see the problem.

As for the taunt... okay I got nothing for that. I could come up with a half assed response but this conversation is better then that.

As for remaking her rather then a new char, this one I actually have a response to. This is the Leader of Ionia, if there are inconsistencies or lore gaps or if she is a lacking char who is unnoticeable in comparison to other chars and doesn't stand out particularly as a leader, it creates a bit of a hole that affects the rest of the faction. Personally, she never stood out to me, but I also have my audio a bit low so I can hear my music, but of all the leader characters, she felt the less... well... authoritative? Mind you, I am very picky on leadership characters.

The only way I feel it could make sense for their desired image of Ionia to keep old Karma is to make her "step down" in the Lore for a new leader.

This is all personal opinion though, not fact or statement of finality, just my analysis.

As for the representation of Ionia, Ionia felt unstable to me, what karma was, in comparison to the ninjas and Irelia and them felt really off. A leader who was so very very different from her subordinates? Usually you follow someone with the same ideals and a strong personality. I honestly think she needed to either better fit Ionia, or Ionia needed to change to better fit her, but all in all, this is the easier right, whether or not that is the better route, I don't know.

Though, until I see her new lore and new ingame personality, I won't say she even changed that much. All we really know, from my understanding, is that she is no longer using fans, her posture is more solid, in your face(ish) and she is in a more combat oriented style, rather then her elegant style prior.

Hopefully they still keep her elegant and wise spirit, with this rework, who knows until we see ingame. and the lore changes


And in response to the very fair statement on how "if I don't like karma I can play other chars." Honestly.. I have, I want to love karma, but I'm a overly logical person. I look at her kit, then other peoples and I can't play her with a good concience. I know other people do, but anything she can do currently, often someone else can do better. Part of the reason for my excitement is that I hope she will be more... viable I guess so I can play her happily. She was my first support char, and I do want to love her.
Well, part of her appeal was exactly that, though: that she was so different from her subordinates and basically any other champion in the league. Definitely more political, restrained and maybe calculating in her way of thinking, and not "in your face", but still someone who deeply cares for her people. And since it was such a unique type of character they could've emphasized those traits in her rework, instead of replacing them with the standard "in your face" thing just because it's easier.

I understand what you're saying about authority. She definitely lacked sort of a presence in the battlefield, and maybe even in the lore, but they could've made her more imposing and intimidating by bringing out her cold, classy composure and her aura of superiority. Someone the enemies would be afraid of because she fights with her dignity, not with her sorrow, not with her emotions. Someone whose dignity would make every defeat a victory. "Victory is assured", after all. It's also what her name means, I think. She's calm and serene because what goes around comes around.

What they did is basically the opposite, and maybe it's silly, but it almost hurts to talk about what she was and what she could have been, because after this rework I doubt we'll ever see that type of champion again. A type of figure that is hardly ever represented in gaming.

In the end though, if this type of character design really is impossible (and I don't think it is) I would've rather seen her step down from her leading position, if it meant preserving at least part of her original design and personality.