So, about that Karma leak...

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Casteor

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Junior Member

03-07-2013

Pls nerf Karma


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Cattington III

Senior Member

03-07-2013

it's funny they didn't realise people would miss the fans, every time they talk about character design it's 'source of power' this and 'source of power' that, but then when they want to change it they're like 'people don't really associate the source of power with the champ do they?'


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CDMarco

Senior Member

03-07-2013

I always felt, as a Karma player, that you could really feel the desperation of her when you played her.
Overcoming adversity.
The very moment you select Karma there is a wave of hatred coming your way. (Much larger wave when you go mid.) Then the uncerntantity on both teams. Your team is expecting you to suck and the enemy team is expecting to have a free mid. Once you start eating the opposing mid for breakfast the poles start to change. The enemy jungler has taken up residence in the bush mid lane.
Team fights start and your contribution to them is amazing, but you'll never get credit because your Karma and she's "useless". That massive team heal that kept everyone in the game, that was Karma. The burst shield that allowed your jungler to get that triple kill, that was Karma. When that jungler got caught later and every skill and mantra were burned and they walked out alive, that was Karma. And when the game is over and your team wins, you keep your composure when all the credit goes to the Top, Jungler, or ADC. Not only do they still see you as just a support, your just Karma. The most underrated champion in the league.

The light at the end of the tunnel is that one champ on the enemy team that goes, "I've never seen her played like that. KARMA OP!"


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Fareley

Senior Member

03-07-2013

the main problem seems to be the rework process. Karma lacked combat impact, so the design team went and tried to make her abilities feel more impactful. But during those iterations the theme of Karma got lost and then finally replaced by a new theme to justify the new abilities (at least that's what I was able to gather from the various remake updates over the past year(s)).
Karma was always about balance, so the right thing to do would have been to go with her theme and think about new/more impactful abilities around that theme.

I'll give you a couple examples as constructive criticism on how I hoped a rework would look like:

Her passive was supposed to be "the more damage you inflict on her, the more she retaliates". What goes around comes around. The ability power boost however never felt like a good passive, as it would be often times hardly noticed at all (plus kinda bad AP ratios made it worth even less). Here are a couple of examples what could have been a remade passive:
- classic thornmail. Damage Karma, get damaged back. Feels powerful (early on, for later you can give it a small AP ratio like Annies molten shield or make it % based to give it a unique flair (such as 20% of all non-true damage returned as magic damage)) and simple.
- damage to healing conversion, for example 20% of damage dealt to Karma healed on nearby allies over the next 3 seconds.
- current Mantra function as passive. Every 20 seconds her abilities passively swap from damaging to healing/helping abilities and vice-versa

examples for normal abilites:
positive effects for allies:
- gives a shield. [maybe cast again for exploding shield for damage]. When the shield breaks on its own, surrounding enemies take extra damage (punishing enemies for damaging shielded ally).
- heals ally. The idea of increased healing based on missing hp was not bad for the theme, but really lacked impact when supporting squishy AD carry (plus was mana-intensive, wasted half the ability (damage) and needed a Mantra. And it was AoE, so it had to be extra bad to not be OP in teamfights). Maybe switch to: heals ally. Heals more based on the difference of current target %hp and Karmas current %hp
- copies movement speed bonus of nearby enemies onto an allied target (only bonus movement speed is applied, base movement speed and thus total movement speed can still be different)
- speed up karma and an ally based on distance to each other. Both get max speed buff when they are in half range of the abilitys range to each other. The closer they are to standing in each other or to max range of the ability the less movement speed they get.
- lose movement speed or hp to increase surrounding allies movement speed or hp
- AoE or single target movement speed increase - the closer an ally is to Karma, the more movement speed he gets

harmful effects on enemies:
- shield idea, see first ability on friendly effects.
- Stun/snare/slow enemy. Increase duration/power based on enemy CC currently active nearby
- damage based on offensive potential of the enemy (as in enemy AD ratio, and maybe a very low AP ratio (like Veigars ult, but not quite as strong))
- damage based on hp - Karmas hp, enemy current %hp
- damage based on how much the target is moving for X seconds. More moving - more damage.
- next ability of enemy damages himself as well, skillshots always hit (with 0 travelling distance for Nidalees spears)

ultimate can remain as Mantra (but not to empower, rather to switch skillset) or any ability, just stronger (like AoE Stun/snare/slow with increased duration/power based on enemy CC, and something from the healing/helping side) if mantra is remade to passive.

Took me around one hour to make up all those abilities, and every single one of them fits the Karma theme and I bet you could make a great Karma remake even with only a quarter of them. But don't kill the Karma theme please <3

As for the fans of Karma (huehue nice pun):
I don't mind if she does not use fans, those were probably just influenced by the geisha-type model. Yes, it looked sweet, but removing them gives you the option to create a real champion based on fans. For all I care, a libra as a weapon would have been most fitting.


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Hamtigers

Junior Member

03-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryOrunitia View Post
Other than the part about the fans, which I felt were an incredibly important part of her design, I couldn't agree more. Especially the "character development" bit.

You want to s**t all over an original design and concept? Fine. You want to make fun of her old fans and basically tell them "sorry but you're stupid for liking that design, it was bad and if you liked it you aren't part of our target demo"? Fine.

But at least have the balls to say that what you did is a COMPLETELY new thing (because unlike the Annie, Nidalee and all the other reworks, this IS a completely new thing) and not just an "evolution" of the original concept. I'd like to think the original Karma would keep her dignity and her composure forever, instead of just getting rid of her fans, putting on a sl**ty dress and getting a boob job and a face lift in reaction to "Ionia's struggles". At least respect that.
I probably should have elaborated more.

I liked her fans and they were a big part of who karma was. It doesn't make me happy that they removed them, but compared to and.alongside all the other changes, it doesn't upset me. Basically, I'm pretty neutral about that particular change.
I only thought to mention them at all because of the number of people devastated by the lack of her fans because I was so caught up in horror over all the other design changes.

I really, really wish the purple one was a new skin, even if this means I get both for free. Because as someone who loves to create original characters and roleplay it shocks me to see such a startlingly different concept be passed off a an "Evolution" as opposed to a restart. If this were a new champion or an alternate skin I would adore it. Instead all I see is the dismantling and disposal of a unique, strong, and elegant character in favor of something the market is used to seeing as successful and appealing to the masses.

...I still can't get over how much I love her clothes on the "traditional skin". Put her fans back in her hands and remove the floating chunks of metal and it would be perfect. It would go right up there next to Leona in my favorite default skins.


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Faari

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Senior Member

03-07-2013

In b4 everyone makes fan pun jokes.. too late


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Splinturt

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Senior Member

03-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotAmes View Post
Traditional's voice will be her original VO.
phew


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Sokolniki

Senior Member

03-07-2013

I am going to miss the fans.

I don't want to delay her re-release, so I'll ask if you, as Riot, would consider re-working the traditional skin in the future so that it has the fans again? you've already displayed an ability to give drastically different particle effects and animations to a new skin as seen with the new Kayle skin.


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Severian NA

Senior Member

03-07-2013

I get the feeling they weren't expecting such a strong reaction to the changes. Like they don't really get what the fuss is about. They put a lot of work into this, and we are everything but happy. Or many of us. That can't be any fun, and that might explain the feeling that they are being too defensive or something. *sigh* I don't want this to be about evil Riot and the poor Karma players. It isn't. But the way they respond makes me feel like we are being silly, that our reaction is unfounded, that we are overreacting. Or something along those lines. And I feel that they either didn't understand what we valued, or that they knew it all too well and decided the best way to deal with it is borderline ignoring it. That is how I feel. I am not saying that is how it is. I am not unreasonable. If they were suprised by this reaction, and would have done it differently if they had known how we felt, I won't rage. Mistakes are made, learning is good. If they knew how we felt, but decided this is how they wanted it to be regardless, I can take that. I am not the center of the universe, and Riot is not the devil. It is not like they are trying to make us feel bad. I'm sure this will be taken all kinds of wrong. I just feel this way, because the response has been so vague I don't know what to think. If I am being a total idiot about this, or something, I won't know unless someone notifies me. I just don't know. Am I doing something wrong? Am I being ridicilous? It seems like I'm not the only one who feels some of this, at least. I'm not trying to be difficult, I am trying very hard to be reasonable. Reason seems to have abandoned me at the moment though :P I better go to bed. *waves*


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Shingo

Senior Member

03-07-2013

You know from the screen shots shown I don't see how fans wouldn't work theme wise, not to mention the were embedded into her lore but anyway..

the projectile: a bolt of spiritual energy I get it, its pretty readable but her fans could have been easily incorporated into this

(she could throw one of her fans aflame with blue spirit flame)

spirit bond: ok well this ability has always looked awkward and from the pics it still looks a bit silly

(when this ability is used a fan floats around Karma tethered via spiritual energy to another fan around the target)

currently Karma's stance looks like she's about to dragon kick somebody in the face

(Reintroducing her fans doesn't mean her stance has to be mirrored, simply by having one fan clasped closed and the other open is enough to allow a martial arts styled battle stance)

Ultimately I think there were lots of directions to take her fanage but my assumption is we are pretty much seeing their finished product visually (which sucks that they didn't seem to consider any veteran feedback)