Blade of the Ruined Kind (Red Attention plz)

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just4GG

Member

03-05-2013

Hello.

So I just read this article (http://www.newsoflegends.com/index.p...the-king-5081/) about the incoming changes on blade of the ruined king.

While I agree that the item was somewhat too cost efficient, I believe those changes to go in the wrong direction to some extent. Right now, what dominates the game are bruisers with huge healthpools and tons of armor (warmogs, sunfire, randuins). AD carries are, as it is, in a fairly weak state (see doublelifts interview at last LCS week to confirm I'm not alone here). This problem gets bigger as the player's skill level gets lower, because bruisers generally have more room for player errors than squishy ranged champions (not saying the game should be balanced around player mistakes, but underlining that if the problem occurs at pro level, it's even bigger for the rest of the community).

That being said, I believe blade of the ruined king was intended to be a way for AD carries to be able to deal with those monstreous bruisers running at them all the time. That is suggested by evidence: Percentage based health shred, attackspeed and a tool to self-peel all help with that task.

Now here's the thing: Bruisers use blade of the ruined king, too now, as a dps item. They want the burst of the active and the slow to stick to the target (ie Jax).


With the above stated in mind, I don't agree with how blade of the ruined king is getting changed:

1) Reduction of AD and increased cost: Hits everyone who uses it and is simply a way of working on the degree of cost efficiency in a "use-neutral" manner. I'm ok with that, Riot has people who work full time on calculations concerning cost of stats and whatnot so I assume they knew what they were doing here.

2) Reduction of max damage against monsters: Decreasing objective control, I agree with that.

3) The active HEAL gets reduced by armor: THIS is the problem. As a self-peel tool for AD carries, the active disengages via the slow and helps compensate a little of the initial "jump-on-you-burst" or whatever damage you took via the heal. Now it's getting reduced by armor, meaning that it's simply gonna be weaker against Bruisers jumping the AD carry, because they buy tons of armor ANYWAY at the moment (sunfire, randuins). Meaning bruisers don't have to do anything to counter BotrK in this regard, the heal active is now countered by what's already strong and bought by everyone anyway in the current meta. But who doesn't get hit is the bruiser buying it to stick to his target, because he doesn't need the heal, all he needs is the damage. Plus his target will be a squishy, so his heal will be reduced far less.

=> In essence this shifts the usefulness of the item away from AD carries towards diving Bruisers (albeit by a small step - but it's a step and goes in the wrong direction), especially those who can make good use of attackspeed.


Constructive part of the critizism - here's my suggestion:

1) Remove (!) the damage on the active
2) Leave the heal unaffected by targets defences
3) Compensate the removed active damage by increasing the attackspeed on it.


This would make the item fit it's intended role as a tank shredder and self-peel tool much better. For those tasks the burst-damage the item currently provides isn't needed. The heal however, is. And the item would be a start towards countering the heavy attackspeed nerf introduced with season 3 (see interview with doublelift for details, he explains the problem very nicely).


Thank you for reading and please keep the discussion clean of trolling and flaming or any other nonsense that can't be supported by any evidence.


TL&DR: The BotrK-active change is a step in the wrong direction. There should be a higher emphasize on attackspeed and disengagement-capability to make the item fulfill it's role as a tank shredder. The damage on the active could be removed for balance.



Edit 1: Yes, I made a typing mistake in the title. I'd be grateful if a mod could fix that.


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just4GG

Member

03-05-2013

Reserved for a summary of the (hopefully coming) constructive discussion.


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iRequiem

Senior Member

03-06-2013

BEFORE

+40 Attack Damage
+10% Life Steal

UNIQUE Passive: Basic attacks deal 5% of the target's current Health in bonus physical damage (max 90 vs. monsters and minions) on hit.
UNIQUE Active: Deals 15% of target champion's maximum Health (min. 100) as physical damage, heals for the same amount, and steals 30% of the target's Movement Speed for 4 seconds (60 second cooldown).

THAN

+30 Attack Damage
+40% Attack Speed
+15% Life Steal

UNIQUE Passive: Basic attacks deal 5% of the target's current Health in bonus physical damage (max 90 vs. monsters and minions) on hit.
UNIQUE Active: Deals 15% of target champion's maximum Health (min. 100) as physical damage, heals for the same amount, and steals 30% of the target's Movement Speed for 4 seconds (60 second cooldown).

NOW

+25 Attack Damage
+40% Attack Speed
+15% Life Steal

UNIQUE Passive: Basic attacks deal 5% of the target's current Health in bonus physical damage (max 90 vs. monsters and minions) on hit.
UNIQUE Active: Deals 15% of target champion's maximum Health (min. 100) as physical damage, heals for the same amount, and steals 30% of the target's Movement Speed for 4 seconds (60 second cooldown).

It first started out with no Attack speed but more damage less life steal before and more now. There was nothing wrong with it before it was buffed, NO ADC bought it cause they never seen it, The only reason why people got it before the buff was because it was seen in action what it was capable of during the LCS. EVERYONE including the professional players were impressed. By the time it was showcased the buff was already to be in place by patch time. and because they saw how much of an impact was made they nerfed it to what it is now.

The solution to HP was BotRK
The solution to BotRK was Armor
The solution to Armor being stacked is magic damage
The solution to magic damage is Magic Resist.

What counters a champion with HP, Armor, and Magic Resist?

Last Whisper: 35% Armor Penetration
Blade of the Ruined King: 5% current HP bonus dmg
Void Staff: 35% Magic Penetration

Not Enough Penetration?

Armor Penetration Runes: 19.2 Max Penetration (Shows as 19 on the rune page)
Magic Penetration Runes: 19.5 Max Penetration (Shows as 20 on the rune page)
Armor Penetration Mastery: 8%
Magic Penetration mastery: 8%

Everyone is so caught up in following the way everyone else builds that they dont look up or try items themselfs which is why BotRK was never used in the first place. Build to your play style not another players. Build what is needed not the standard.


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xGnesis

Senior Member

03-06-2013

As a solotop player I can say we are now either have to be forced to buy it or not buy entirely and rush armor AND THEN MR against the APs later on in the game. But if a bruiser rush botrk, they become rather squishy and does not play their role properly as a tank.

I say reduce the lifesteal back to 10% and increase the damage back to 30 and keep its passive and active affected by armor. You didnt see solotop player build BT all the time did we? Because it made us too squishy and building tanky enough would negate that damage if they weren't leading in their lane (top).
Everyone are just tunneled vision with the idea of building hp which makes everyone (even top players) into buying botrk which isn't amazing for a solotop player. Top player should be building brutilizer and rush sunfirecape or randiun to negate the damage on botrk. Then add some mr to further increase their tankiness as a tank for their team. Tank Top>Damage Top laner by mid-game.

Botrk was made to devastate the 4k tank running down the adc which seem impossible to kill with such outrageous hp pool of warmog-randiun-sunfire. Now players has to decide wisely to either rush a warmog because now it has a counter item made exactly just to counter warmog. What is needed now is that Riot brings back Force of Nature because players now will need more items that does not encourage HP but more MR because of this new armor stacking tank meta. (More Armor, Less HP, More MR)

Since they increase the cost of Armor and MR. It made buying HP much easier, this way with the botrk change people will be more encourage to buy resist again and not have 4k item but more like 3k hp like how it should be.

Furthermore, I still believe Botrk is still the jack-of-all-trades and it has no tradeoff to buy it. If one which buys a BT they trade off Attack Speed for Damage. If one which buys a PD they trade off Damage for more Attack Speed. Botrk King has about everything: Attack Speed, Damage, Sustain, and an Active. Which more then people can ask for.. They should have really reduce the attack speed to 30% and lifesteal to 12% but increase the damage back to 30AD. Since it will have less attack proc for more AD players will decide to either buy this item vs BT. To either buy it first or buy it later on in the to deal with tank players.
This way buying Botrk will trade off extensive burst damage for okay damage but useful against tanks. The goal for buying Botrk was to make it useful against tanks with high hp! Not so it was good against everyone.

Now lets make the comparison:

40 AD+10 LS (+5% Current HP Damage + Active) Old
vs
30AD+30AS and 12 LS (+5% Current HP Damage + Active) New
vs
25AD+40AS and 15 LS (+5% Current HP Damage + Active) Current
vs
BT 70AD+12LS (+30AD+6LS Fully Stacked)

Its still better but more useful against tanks this way since buying BT will still be better against squishier target under 2500HP but better against players over 2500HP. As it stands now still makes it better against players with over 2300HP against BT which is crazy imo.


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Zerkaro

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Junior Member

03-06-2013

Forget it......Let's just bring back the good old Madred's Bloodrazor. Same damn thing but no active, deals magic in leu of physical ( face it....% damage that is physical on a AD champ versus someone that builds armor? Silly if you ask me ), has light AD and armor, and some attack speed. That thing was a true tank buster.


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xGnesis

Senior Member

03-06-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerkaro View Post
Forget it......Let's just bring back the good old Madred's Bloodrazor. Same damn thing but no active, deals magic in leu of physical ( face it....% damage that is physical on a AD champ versus someone that builds armor? Silly if you ask me ), has light AD and armor, and some attack speed. That thing was a true tank buster.
The problem was that it has armor for no reason! Should increase damage for no armor at all. But your case is true.. Physical % damage against someone who builds armor to negate your aa.. -.- I would like to see MDB come back because all the hp item stacking lately, I dont know they took it out of the game since they made armor and mr harder to get and hp easier to get. All they had to do was buff it and change the item route for it and baam balance item, maybe add in an active just a slow or something to make has a peel mechanic.


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Kholdstare13

Senior Member

03-06-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CnR Gnesis View Post
The problem was that it has armor for no reason! Should increase damage for no armor at all. But your case is true.. Physical % damage against someone who builds armor to negate your aa.. -.- I would like to see MDB come back because all the hp item stacking lately, I dont know they took it out of the game since they made armor and mr harder to get and hp easier to get. All they had to do was buff it and change the item route for it and baam balance item, maybe add in an active just a slow or something to make has a peel mechanic.
The armor on MBR would reduce its viability in season 3, thanks to the devaluation of resistances base on penetration changes. Instead, I suggest using the old BRK method of healing for half the proc damage on hit. It provides a similar boost to survivability as BRK's lifesteal (on heavy AD) or MBR's S2 armor, while also finally a method for on-hit sustain. Max health % damage as magic is a glorious effect against health stacking, and is not abused by bruisers to the extent BRK is, except of course Warwick.

The trick would be balancing it so that it is not USELESS on an AD instead of an on-hit (make the raw AD/AS in viable amounts), but make it LESS efficient than the raw AD crit path against squishy targets. Make it a CHOICE for a tank buster, great for on-hit, but still acceptable on AD.


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xGnesis

Senior Member

03-06-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kholdstare13 View Post
The armor on MBR would reduce its viability in season 3, thanks to the devaluation of resistances base on penetration changes. Instead, I suggest using the old BRK method of healing for half the proc damage on hit. It provides a similar boost to survivability as BRK's lifesteal (on heavy AD) or MBR's S2 armor, while also finally a method for on-hit sustain. Max health % damage as magic is a glorious effect against health stacking, and is not abused by bruisers to the extent BRK is, except of course Warwick.

The trick would be balancing it so that it is not USELESS on an AD instead of an on-hit (make the raw AD/AS in viable amounts), but make it LESS efficient than the raw AD crit path against squishy targets. Make it a CHOICE for a tank buster, great for on-hit, but still acceptable on AD.
Thats what I'm saying: remove the armor, change the item route so it doesnt involve armor, make an active for it to compensate for the lost of armor. And sure a passive which heals isnt bad either... but MBR should not have a build in lifesteal with it.


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Xoj 21

Senior Member

03-06-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CnR Gnesis View Post
Thats what I'm saying: remove the armor, change the item route so it doesnt involve armor, make an active for it to compensate for the lost of armor. And sure a passive which heals isnt bad either... but MBR should not have a build in lifesteal with it.
its already less sustain than bloodthister.


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wontfight

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Senior Member

03-06-2013

i agree with iRequiem.


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