Laning Phase

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scazzaf

Senior Member

03-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Blade Yago View Post
SUPPOSEDLY things like bruisers being too strong and turtling were nerfed, but they're worse than ever.

The smaller size of the map made it even harder for early characters to do anything because it's impossible to have a healthy laning phase.
But that's just not true brother


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Demacry

Senior Member

03-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokingJoeNL View Post
What is that supposed to mean. Playing it for the wrong reason? I like lol, but not sr or dom. Si is not bad, but dreadfully simplistic. Only way I can have some fun with league is playing si. How is that not for the right reasons. How dramatic.
You told me "We play this because we loved the old tt and there is nothing closer to it than this." To me this does not sound like someone who plays the map because it's fun.

If you want a complex MOBA go play DOTA2 or buy yourself Demigod (not very complex but definitely different).

"This map is not fun but I'll only play on this map because it's close to fun," how dramatic and contradicting.

There's nothing saying you have to stick with LoL, unless you've dumped a ton of money into RP on a game you don't fully enjoy, in which case you have bigger problems than this map.


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Yago Xiten

Senior Member

03-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demacry View Post
Let's go with your example of Vayne, Darius, and Malzahar (<- I play this guy all the time in 3s) vs Rengar, Lux, and Garen.

A well played Darius can out play a Garen or a Rengar (I would assume Garen would be top with this comp). Trying to have Darius lane with Malz or Vayne is the wrong way to go. Stick that guy top lane or he'll make sharing farm on bot lane difficult and he'll level slow. Darius scales exponentially with levels and farm. He's (should) not going to gank a lot till level 6-8 but in the meantime he's going to farm like it's SR. Push the lane, clear jungle camps, recall, clear camps, push lane, clear camps, recall. If he does just this for the first part of the game he'll have such a huge lead over their top lane and everyone else in the game it'll seem broken.

Malz can solo lane (or 1v2) easily, I'm not even going to touch this. If you can't make this happen then you need to rethink how you play Malz.

Vayne is the only one I would not leave alone to solo lane (though my experience with her is limited). If you set Vayne and Malz bottom lane the two working together should be able to split farm and zone easily. It will largely rely on freezing the lane just in front of middle where a wall stun can keep the enemy at bay. Vs a Lux, Rengar you just have to sit out of range of the bush jump and learn to dodge a skill shot.

If Rengar is jungling then you go balls deep on Lux and kill her, Vayne should be running exhaust/flash. You can zone a solo Lux easily and deny her farm and experience (a single e from Malz will chunk her for at least 30% of her life). If Garen is making runs to bottom to gank just unleash your abilies, push the lane, and back off before he gets there. Darius will thank you for the free lead you just gave him. Rengar jungling and comes through mid to pinch and gank? Plan for it, wall stun him and unleash all hell.

Yes if you put Darius bottom he'll be at a disadvantage because he didn't get to fast level or farm well because he got poked and zoned all early game. If your team only has one bruiser/wall put him top lane and let him fast level.
And suppose the enemy team decides not to abide by laning and all three go to push top. Darius can no longer farm, Vayne and Malzahar are at a huge teamfight disadvantage early in the game.

Can't split push or the one who tries will die and the enemy team will snowball.


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Demacry

Senior Member

03-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Blade Yago View Post
And suppose the enemy team decides not to abide by laning and all three go to push top. Darius can no longer farm, Vayne and Malzahar are at a huge teamfight disadvantage early in the game.

Can't split push or the one who tries will die and the enemy team will snowball.
Then in this case let Malz solo bot and help Vayne feed off the jungle camps.

If a level 1-2 Lux and Garen are bumb rushing you just spam laugh at them from a safe distance while your team farms.

There is no such thing as constantly roaming, scarcely farming, not getting kills, and staying even in levels/gold all at the same time. If they're getting kills then that is the only reason it's working, in which case you and your team need to work on communication and positioning. If their entire team is missing for an extended length of time then you NEED someone watching the jungle.

Games like these are anomalies and not the norm because there is a huge risk for no guarantee of a payoff.


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SmokingJoeNL

Senior Member

03-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demacry View Post
You told me "We play this because we loved the old tt and there is nothing closer to it than this." To me this does not sound like someone who plays the map because it's fun.

If you want a complex MOBA go play DOTA2 or buy yourself Demigod (not very complex but definitely different).

"This map is not fun but I'll only play on this map because it's close to fun," how dramatic and contradicting.

There's nothing saying you have to stick with LoL, unless you've dumped a ton of money into RP on a game you don't fully enjoy, in which case you have bigger problems than this map.
If it wasn't fun at all, I would indeed not be playing it. At least that part of your logic I can concur with.

Using your paraphasing and opinion between quote marks is misleading btw.


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Demacry

Senior Member

03-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokingJoeNL View Post
If it wasn't fun at all, I would indeed not be playing it. At least that part of your logic I can concur with.
Please explain how playing something as homage to something else is fun.


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SmokingJoeNL

Senior Member

03-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demacry View Post
Please explain how playing something as homage to something else is fun.
I don't see what that has to do with me playing the only map I somewhat like, in a game I love.

Should I perhaps explain to you how I like the mechanics and the way league feels when you play it? Because that is where I have the fun. Or the characters of the heroes? That adds to the fun as well. What are you talking about again? You want to know something about how to have fun while playing an hommage? I have no idea.


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Yago Xiten

Senior Member

03-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demacry View Post
Then in this case let Malz solo bot and help Vayne feed off the jungle camps.

If a level 1-2 Lux and Garen are bumb rushing you just spam laugh at them from a safe distance while your team farms.

There is no such thing as constantly roaming, scarcely farming, not getting kills, and staying even in levels/gold all at the same time. If they're getting kills then that is the only reason it's working, in which case you and your team need to work on communication and positioning. If their entire team is missing for an extended length of time then you NEED someone watching the jungle.

Games like these are anomalies and not the norm because there is a huge risk for no guarantee of a payoff.
Oh, and I forgot one thing real quick.


That bold part. Exactly the point. 2 Bruiser + AP > All. You can /try/ other things, but it's highly risky and usually just won't work. Well, unless played to perfection and even then, you're still horribly disadvantaged, and a single mistake will cost you turrets, inhibitors, and the game quickly.

There is no way to have a good laning phase on 3v3 without the bruiser comp if all players are equally skilled.


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Demacry

Senior Member

03-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Blade Yago View Post
Oh, and I forgot one thing real quick.


That bold part. Exactly the point. 2 Bruiser + AP > All. You can /try/ other things, but it's highly risky and usually just won't work. Well, unless played to perfection and even then, you're still horribly disadvantaged, and a single mistake will cost you turrets, inhibitors, and the game quickly.

There is no way to have a good laning phase on 3v3 without the bruiser comp if all players are equally skilled.
See I can do it too.

How is this any different from any other game mode in the existence of LoL?

2 Bruiser + AP > All is your opinion and if you choose to limit yourself by that thought then so be it; I've crushed a Darius, Singed, Kha team with nothing more than Soraka, Cassiopia, Singed (yay blind mode mirror matchups). Sure I was the better Singed but I know for a fact that 2Bru+AP can lose to any manner of creative thing.

And once again we've successfully departed from the original topic of laning in 3s. Why did you make this thread again?

Edit: Ok, so maybe you tied in not being able to lane without a bruiser comp at the end and I missed it in my eagerness. Sorry 'bout that.

But the point still remains; you're creating "facts" out of nothing and trying to argue points based on those "facts". It doesn't work that way.


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Yago Xiten

Senior Member

03-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demacry View Post
See I can do it too.

How is this any different from any other game mode in the existence of LoL?

2 Bruiser + AP > All is your opinion and if you choose to limit yourself by that thought then so be it; I've crushed a Darius, Singed, Kha team with nothing more than Soraka, Cassiopia, Singed (yay blind mode mirror matchups). Sure I was the better Singed but I know for a fact that 2Bru+AP can lose to any manner of creative thing.

And once again we've successfully departed from the original topic of laning in 3s. Why did you make this thread again?
The 2 Bruiser + AP is the commonly accepted best team comp strategy in 3v3.

Also, neither of those teams really fit into the 2 Bruiser + AP category.

On top of that Cassiopeia is a pretty good counter to both Singed, and Darius, and Singed is pretty good at dealing with Kha'zix. Your team had the advantage just based upon picks. And too many variables are left out anyways, like the team's skill.

The point of this thread is that there is no real chance at a laning phase for many characters because of the dominance of bruisers.

This was originally one of the issues that was supposed to be addressed in the remake, and it was only exacerbated.

The reduced map and jungle size actually makes it harder for highly farm dependent and weak early game champions to be able to survive into the later stages.

Fixing the map so that there can be a safer and more established laning phase would help tremendously to fix a problem that was supposedly addressed. It's currently so riddled with team sticking, early team fights, ganking, and necessary caution that it's virtually impossible to lane.

Jungling is denied for characters such as Vayne, and the Ghost Relic caters to those who can jungle, which barring some exceptions, tend to be bruisers.