Laning Phase

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Yago Xiten

Senior Member

03-04-2013

Seriously, there is not a laning phase anymore.

At all.

No point to it.

The game starts with the teams running to go sit in a random brush patch. Obviously, you can't stay away from the minions forever. So, eventually, either both teams back off doing nothing, end up team fighting, or some poor unfortunate target who tried to farm gets destroyed and then the game goes on.

After this, though, the ridiculous roaming starts. The map is so small that the time from one lane to the next is like ten seconds or so. To make it worse, the lanes naturally freeze in such a way that you are incredibly easy to gank from any angle.

Usually the map turns into a ridiculous slaughter fest with one team stomping. The only way you can farm safely is to farm your jungle. Three small camps cannot support three players.
To make matters worse, if you do end up getting aced or falling behind, the enemy can instantly take down your turrets because of how weak they are. Which makes the already very dangerous problem of laning and farming even more dangerous.

As if this isn't bad enough, suppose that a normal, healthy laning phase does start to happen.

The minions freeze right near the brush and...the first one to get to the brush basically gets a free win on the lane. The lanes are so narrow you cannot get close without getting pounced upon by Vi, Jax, Rengar (he's probably the worst thing in the world to lane against in 3v3 because of the 0 second cooldown gap closer and juke immunity) or etc. with a gap closer/disable. The only way to really prevent this is to push the lane, making you far more susceptible to ganks (and you weren't safe to begin with), or to have the opponent push the lane, which still doesn't prevent the ranking problem and means you end up losing your turrets quickly.

You can't buy wards to stop all the threat of brush. Oh sure you can get Sweeper/Lantern. But even if you rush it, good luck getting it quick enough to save laning.

Honestly you can't even really split push with 90% of Champions, because the time required to cross the map is less than the time it takes to push the wave. There's only a few exceptions to this. On top of that, if you do split push somewhat successfully, there goes your altar.

Oh that's another thing. The altar force you to pull out from your lane to defend your altar and team-fight every 90 seconds or so. If you choose to let it go and farm, you lose that +3 gold bonus and farming, which is already stupid difficult enough to do successfully on many characters, becomes even more useless.

3v3 has no laning phase, it's an abhorrent gank fest and any team comp that isn't some bruiser based stomp has a ridiculously hard time doing well.

Oh, and you could say that this increased the speed of the matches, but that's not true. My matches are the same turtle-fest length as the previous 3v3 map. The only reason they're any shorter for anyone? Because the snowballing is so hard the surrender button gets mashed faster.

The new map is abhorrent. I'm sick of it, it's ruined 3v3 which was in a bad spot to begin with. The awful HP meta and this new map made it even more of a bruiser playground.

Why isn't there anything being done to fix this complete lack of health laning phase? If you're not incredibly safe or a powerhouse early on, it's over because you'll get ganked, or it won't be safe to farm, and then down goes your turrets and inhibitor--but unless you surrender you'll end up dragging the match out forever just like before on the old map.


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Leiryn

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Junior Member

03-04-2013

So, if you have this much knowledge in relation to 3's use it to your advantage.


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Demacry

Senior Member

03-05-2013

I'm pretty sure you could of condensed that entire post into 2-3 reasonably short paragraphs. You should avoid reiterating previous points from the same post.

Also, you have a minimap, use it. If you've played more than 20 games reasonably well and can watch the map/other lane then your opponents' positions should be easily guesstimated with at least 75% accuracy. Just because laning isn't an 18 minute farm-fest does not mean it doesn't exist. You can draw it out or cut it short pretty easily based on the needs of your team.

If you can't defend your own altar when they bottleneck themselves at your jungle entrance then either you arn't responding to their invasion fast enough or your team comp needs work.


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Yago Xiten

Senior Member

03-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demacry View Post
I'm pretty sure you could of condensed that entire post into 2-3 reasonably short paragraphs. You should avoid reiterating previous points from the same post.

Also, you have a minimap, use it. If you've played more than 20 games reasonably well and can watch the map/other lane then your opponents' positions should be easily guesstimated with at least 75% accuracy. Just because laning isn't an 18 minute farm-fest does not mean it doesn't exist. You can draw it out or cut it short pretty easily based on the needs of your team.

If you can't defend your own altar when they bottleneck themselves at your jungle entrance then either you arn't responding to their invasion fast enough or your team comp needs work.
It's an elaborate discussion.

I can simplify it quite nicely:

Laning safely is impossible. Bruisers and roaming are too strong, and uncounterable.


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Demacry

Senior Member

03-05-2013

Then you're either trying to solo lane Ashe (or someone similar with no escapes) or you're pushing to hard too early. Roaming and ganks are only beneficial if you let them get something for it.


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Yetti

Senior Member

03-05-2013

If you want an extended laning phase, 5's is your thing. 3's is all about early game skirmishing, which requires a good amount of map awareness and team coordination. Most players that play 3's enjoy the rapid pace of the map, and the fact that team-fighting occurs every couple minutes. If that's not your thing, no one is forcing you to play 3's.

Also you mentioned something about waiting in a random bush to fight. If you don't want to wait in a random bush and level 1 fight, then don't (in fact, I strongly advise against level 1 fighting). Just stay near your turrets early, and then head to lane with your minions. If everyone is missing, just stay a bit back until you get vision of someone, which will prevent you from getting cheesed. Even if you have to miss a cs or 2, eventually the enemy will get behind if they are all sitting in a bush trying to catch someone at level 1.

Also, you contradict yourself quite hard. Here are 2 of your statements:

"To make matters worse, if you do end up getting aced or falling behind, the enemy can instantly take down your turrets because of how weak they are."

"Oh, and you could say that this increased the speed of the matches, but that's not true. My matches are the same turtle-fest length as the previous 3v3 map."

So which is it? The enemy can easily take turrets, and thus end the game faster? Or the matches are a turtle-fest?

My suggestion? Change your attitude and outlook of the map. Like I said, if it's a long laning phase you're interested in, I would suggest going to play Summoners Rift. But if you do like Twisted Treeline (which it sounds like you don't... all you have is negative things to say), instead of thinking of what you can complain about, think about how you can change your play-style to match how Twisted Treeline flows. Can't split push on this map? Don't try to. Focus on working with your team. Getting ganked all day? Play a safe laner. Or communicate and work closely with your jungler (if you have one). If the opposing lane's enemy laner is missing, back up (this is where map awareness is really important... don't always expect an mia call).

Hope this helps! If you find yourself still not enjoying playing this map, just don't play it. Why play something you don't enjoy?


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Yago Xiten

Senior Member

03-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yetti View Post
If you want an extended laning phase, 5's is your thing. 3's is all about early game skirmishing, which requires a good amount of map awareness and team coordination. Most players that play 3's enjoy the rapid pace of the map, and the fact that team-fighting occurs every couple minutes. If that's not your thing, no one is forcing you to play 3's.

Also you mentioned something about waiting in a random bush to fight. If you don't want to wait in a random bush and level 1 fight, then don't (in fact, I strongly advise against level 1 fighting). Just stay near your turrets early, and then head to lane with your minions. If everyone is missing, just stay a bit back until you get vision of someone, which will prevent you from getting cheesed. Even if you have to miss a cs or 2, eventually the enemy will get behind if they are all sitting in a bush trying to catch someone at level 1.

Also, you contradict yourself quite hard. Here are 2 of your statements:

"To make matters worse, if you do end up getting aced or falling behind, the enemy can instantly take down your turrets because of how weak they are."

"Oh, and you could say that this increased the speed of the matches, but that's not true. My matches are the same turtle-fest length as the previous 3v3 map."

So which is it? The enemy can easily take turrets, and thus end the game faster? Or the matches are a turtle-fest?

My suggestion? Change your attitude and outlook of the map. Like I said, if it's a long laning phase you're interested in, I would suggest going to play Summoners Rift. But if you do like Twisted Treeline (which it sounds like you don't... all you have is negative things to say), instead of thinking of what you can complain about, think about how you can change your play-style to match how Twisted Treeline flows. Can't split push on this map? Don't try to. Focus on working with your team. Getting ganked all day? Play a safe laner. Or communicate and work closely with your jungler (if you have one). If the opposing lane's enemy laner is missing, back up (this is where map awareness is really important... don't always expect an mia call).

Hope this helps! If you find yourself still not enjoying playing this map, just don't play it. Why play something you don't enjoy?
I absolutely hate posts like these.

It's incredibly unhelpful and rather than addressing the fact that the map is incredibly broken and expressing a desire to fix this, I am told "If you don't like it don't play it." and some incredibly obvious advice I'm already well aware of.

I'm not talking about an EXTENDED laning phase. I mean a laning phase at all. There is. No. Laning. Phase. At. All.

It does not exist, unless your enemy team WANTS it to exist. If they start roaming as 3 from level 1 onwards. You MUST do the same. Characters, thusly, who are not strong at early levels, and who require farm, are completely denied the ability to get it. You cannot stray from your team to farm, and you cannot stay with your team because you are useless without farm.

I never participate in the level 1 fight. I sit at my turret, patiently waiting for minions.

What usually happens is that my team rages and spams me with pings for not going to sit in the brush with them. Then, they usually die 3v2 because they would not stay safe. If they decide to stay back, then once the minions spawn, it is impossible to get close to the minions, even for experience. I usually stay back very far from the brush and don't even consider getting CS until the enemy appears.

The problem is that this can take an extremely long amount of time. I have seen opponents sit in the brush until the second minion wave is almost dead. Being unable to do anything at this time is awful. Oh, you could go as a group, with your team to farm minions, but this presents some problems, especially if, again, you are not good in a level 1 team fight. Either you get lucky and the enemy team is sitting in the other lane, and comes out from their brush, or you teamfight. In either case, the skirmishes start before anyone can get any CS, and one team snowballs from FB and the kills.

So right from the start, it's teamfights. You can't spread out from your team, and going with your team everywhere stifles you just as much. You cannot get experience, and you cannot get gold. If you are weak early on, you will stay this way. If you are turtling, safe, as 3, the enemy team will send one member to split push. Should you try to fight him, you'll have to be ready for a teamfight, which, as we've discussed, is largely unwinnable if you're not someone who is a bruiser and stomps early on.

It's completely rigged.

Also, I didn't contradict myself. Towers do melt the second you get aced. But not quite enough to actually destroy the Nexus. You just end up getting caught up in your base like a can. You are FORCED into turtling, and it is as effective as before.


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Yetti

Senior Member

03-05-2013

Haha honestly halfway through writing my first post, I was like "Why am I even wasting my time with this guy? He is obviously extremely closed minded about the topic. Oh well I'll give it a try anyways." And I'm still thinking that. But I'll try once more.

First of all, there is a laning phase. And if you don't think there is, you're wrong.

Secondly, I honestly want to know, why do you play this map? Does everything about it suck?


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AndersMMO

Senior Member

03-05-2013

To the OP;

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yetti View Post
you're wrong.
Pain and simple.

There is an inarguable lane phase, yes it's shorter and involves more ganks than an SR one but that doesn't make it any less of a lane phase.

And news flash, even if there wasn't a lane phase; at what point does that make this map "broken?" Is there some omnipotent law I'm unaware of that necessitates lane phases?

The map is what it is. The majority of the community thinks it's in a relative good place right now so the fact you think it's so radically broken means that either everyone else is crazy, or you're looking for the map to be something it isn't. I think everyone less you would agree it's the latter.

TLDR; I fed the troll.


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SmokingJoeNL

Senior Member

03-05-2013

Great first post. We play this because we loved the old tt and there is nothing closer to it than this. We are playing something we don't enjoy much, because riot took away what we did like. We still love the gameplay of league. It's only the map itself and the style of play it forces, what makes it unfun.