[Weak's] Analysis of Quin: Why she is terrible and how to improve her

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WeakRoSe

Member

03-04-2013

Hello everyone, I dont post on here alot so you probably dont know me but I play this game ALOT. I try to save up 6000+ IP so that I can buy champs as soon as they come out as I did with Quin, but upon playing her I noticed that she sucks at her role as adc. This discovery lead to the following:

Why she is bad:
Quin is bad because she has no damage or burst potential like other ADC's making it hard for her to secure kills and farm up. Although her ultimate gives her high mobility it also paints a huge target on her back making her easily focused and so it is even hard to use as a finisher. Overall her kit needs to be reworked slightly to make her more like an ADC. It is almost like riot said "lets make an ADC that focuses less on actually dealing damage and more towards mobility...." <3 riot

Harrier (Passive):
She has a fairly good passive which is in league with some of the better carries and I have no problems with it. Some people may be upset about the randomness of the passive as it is hard to focus people with it, without putting yourself in danger ergo your (E) but all in all it is a good passive which alone doesnt ruin quiin.

Blinding Assault (Q)
The base stat of this ability is pretty good as at level 5 it deals 230 base damage which is fairly good considering its range and the blind it inflicts. BUT the .65 ratio is horrible. Lets look at Caitlyn, the base damage on her Q is 180 which is lower than quins but the ratio on her Q is a whooping 1.3 AD Ratiowhich is more than twice as much as quins ratio. Graves buckshot has a base damage of 200 which is lower than quins but he has a .8 AD ratio. Even ashe's volly which isnt known for doing damage has a whooping 1.0 AD Ratio. In the early game this isnt too bad and quin actually has the advantage since her base damage is higher and you will have less items. But towards the middle towards late game quin (Q) starts to slowly scale worst and worst as you begin to get less and less bang for your buck. One last thing you should consider is that Caitlyns Q works off of AD Ratio's while Quins works off of Bonus AD.

**
Every ability from this point on are good reasons as to why quin is bad. She has only 1 ability that deals damage while other champions have at least 2 if not more. And so she has very little ability to burst champions down like most ADC's and must rely on dealing large amounts of damage over time through basic attacks.
**

Heightened Senses (W)
This ability, I feel, is more for valor than it is for you. First off since you are going to be leveling your Q first so this ability is going to be at level 1 until you reach level 8 which will take some time. Even then the reveal only last for 1-2 seconds and has such a high cool down that this ability is less for scouting ganks or players hiding in bushes and more for chasing players who run into bushes thus allowing you to keep attacking without losing vision. But having a niche ability dedicated to something so rare feels like a waste. The abilities passive attack speed boost is nice as well, but it pales in comparison to other ADC's attack speed boost like graves, who's barrel roll at level 5 gives him 70% attack speed right off the bat for 4 seconds, Quins boost at lvl 5 gives you 40% attack speed for 3 seconds and that is only after hitting what ever valor marks as vulnerable. All in all this ability is fairly weak and is more for valor than it is for quin, which means if your not willing to pop your ultimate and become a squishy melee range ADC then your not going to benefit from this.

Vault (E)
This is one of the reasons I hate quin. You may think this is an escape ability but it really isnt, you may think this is a chasing ability that helps you close gaps BUT IT ISNT, so what is it? Who knows... If you try to escape with this ability you had better pray the other guy doesnt have any CC, because you are infact targetable while vaulting off the opponent. There are so many times where I try to vault off nautilus only to be stunned by his passive. Or vaulting into elises stun and the list goes on. The fact that you are targetable while vaulting makes you a HUGE target and puts you in even more danger, so with that it really isnt an escape ability. So what about chasing? Well the only problem with that is the fact that it doesnt really help you chase, it keeps the exact same distance between you and your opponent so you are no better off other than having them slowed by 50% which isnt too bad but the damage also decays over time over 2 seconds, ALSO by using it you put yourself in danger AND it has a roughly 1-2 second channel time between you vaulting off them and landing again. Which means for 1-2 seconds you arent doing damage. This wouldnt be too bad if your vault actually did damage but it doesnt, at lvl 5 it deals 160 damage with a .2 BONUS AD Ratio, which is nothing compared to Caitlyns 280 damage with a 80% AP ratio and slows for 50% but this slow doesnt decay over time.

Tag Team/ Sky Strike (R)
This is her greatest gift and at the same time her greatest weakness. In a 1v1 situation it is decent, you get high mobility, high attack speed and a nice finisher that does decent damage. But it is nothing compared to other ultimates. Sky strike at level 3 (And assuming there at low health because if they arent low your dealing laughable damage) deals 440 damage with 100% AD Ratio, now lets compare it to some others. Caitlyn's Ace in the Hole Ultimate at lvl 3 deals 700 Damage with a 200% AD Ratio which can be dealt at long range without even entering a fight. Graves ultimate deals 450 damage with a 140% AD Ratio which is a huge step up from quins mainly it will deal because you dont need to worry about how low your opponent is. EVEN Ashe's ultimate is better because it deals 600 damage and stuns for 3.5 seconds. Now that the damage is out of the way lets talk about the worst thing about her ultimate. The fact that valor is melee means that he will have to get right into the fray of fights, most ADC's live by the creed of staying in the back and dealing damage from as far back as possible and even graves who has to get a little bit closer has a passive that gives him MR and Armor. But Quins ultimate makes her melee without taking into accountability how squishy she is, which makes it extremely hard to pull off in team fights where you will most likely die to AoE damage and focus before you even get a chance to activate Sky Strike. So to me the ultimate feels more like a gap closer that will help you chase down low health champions than a high damage ultimate, the only problem is why would your ultimate, which is suppose to be your strongest spell, be reduced to being a gap closer that deals marginal damage at best.

Idea on how to improve Quins spells while keeping your balanced:

(Q) - A few things can be done to improve this, Increase its base stats, Increase the AD Ratio heck even switching it from Bonus AD to base AD would be a great fix. While reducing the blind duration to 1 second if needed.

(W) - Completely rework this. Perhaps have it give a flat AD bonus like fiora or perhaps have it increase her range as her level increases like tristana would be great, or have it proc all enemies in the area as vulnerable as well as giving vision, that way it deals some kind of damage.

(E) - Simply making quin untargetable while vaulting would do the trick, or having valor apply the slow since having her vault just to put you back in the same range is meh, Also increase the damage on this or increase the slow amount and having it taper off over time would be great, or just not having it taper off would be good.

(R) - There should be an armor and mr increase when using tag team, it should increase the range on vault and the damage on sky strike should be reworked.

**
These changes alone would work alot towards improving her strengths and making her feel less under powered and useless.



Laning Ideas:
When discovering that she is terrible as an ais when I thought to myself, well maybe she isnt meant for adc and I tried her in different lanes.

Top Lane:
She doesnt have the base stats for top lane, nor does she have the health for it and if you build her tanky she loses all damage. Perhaps should would be best build straight up tanky with something like a wits end or a ruined king to deal damage over time. This is actually a lane I think she has alot of potential for and if built/played properly can be pretty strong.

Jungle:

Little survivability and cant clear quick enough.

ADC:
Too underpowered in comparison and is bursted/poked down fairly easily.

Support:
Really?

Mid:
This is the lane I think she is best built for as her ult gives you great map presense and lets you gank anywhere on the map pretty quickly. But her kit isnt really build for playing mid, she cant harrass at a range like caitlyn and doesnt have a silence like talon does and has NO burst potential.

Quin is pretty much the champion without a lane at this point...


Feed Back & Response

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightails View Post
uh... She's an extremely annoying top with the ability to easily counter. Sure her ult does exactly opposite of what she wants but, it ALSO gives her something she wants. Movement speed. It also makes her a adequate pusher. Q is extremely aggravating and pisses people off bot lane, W is Ashes E, which she doesn't need. Plus it gives her AS when she lands her innate. E is good for burst damage/slow and can even be something to catch up to champions, like Caitlyn. Just before E goes off and you vault to her, you land beside her.

Quinn really isn't weak.
What you just said can be said about any champion regardless of how weak they are. Heck everyone agrees that WW is weak and needs a rework but i can easily point out the strenghts and or purposes of there spell and casually say there not weak at the end. The point is that in comparison to other carries she is underpowered. Her Q doesnt scale into the late game, her W is useless other than while being in valor form, her E slows but puts you in danger, her R i already went over and doesnt deal damage. You didnt respond to anything I said, you just said what you wanted to say and ended with Quin isnt weak...



Quote:
Originally Posted by Shanghaiii View Post
from what i see in playiing/laning with her. She is like cait or ashe or urgot, a sustained attacker. She is not bursty for sure, but she deals damage over the long run. She isnt a instaa-gib champ like others, she is useful for sustaining damage.

If you want burst, thats akali's or veigars job.
I compare alot of Quinns spells to Caitlyn and it is extremely obvious that Caitlyn is the better champion, so how you group them in the same category is beyond me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gimpyloser View Post
She has a lot of utility and team fight potential. AOE blind in a team fight is much more useful than you give it credit for, as is the vision from Heightened Senses. When contesting dragon or baron and all the wards are being cleared that small window of vision can mean a lot. You seem to be upset that her abilities don't do a lot of damage which is true, but they add a lot of utility and ultimately most of an ADC's damage is from autoattacks, not burst, with a few exceptions (Ezreal, Graves come to mind). All in all I think this is an extremely unfair assessment and a very premature one. I see a lot of potential in this champion and expect to see her shine as people gain experience with her.
Well said, she does have alot of utility. But how does utility go towards winning a lane? Winning team fights? 1v1 potential. She has great utilities but good utilities are something you see more on supports and junglers. Not on ADC's. Yes it is true that an ADC's main damage is there abilities and even that is arguable but to say that because of that they do not need damaging abilities is itself a premature assessment. Caitlyn has 2 forms of CC and yet all her spells does damage, and even champs like graves who have CC like slows and attack speed boost eclipse quins ability. I am not saying she is extremely weak, I am not saying she is unplayable, I am saying she is underpowered and that when chosing people are going to go for Cait or Graves instead of picking a weaker spin off of them


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Celestian

Senior Member

03-04-2013

uh... She's an extremely annoying top with the ability to easily counter. Sure her ult does exactly opposite of what she wants but, it ALSO gives her something she wants. Movement speed. It also makes her a adequate pusher. Q is extremely aggravating and pisses people off bot lane, W is Ashes E, which she doesn't need. Plus it gives her AS when she lands her innate. E is good for burst damage/slow and can even be something to catch up to champions, like Caitlyn. Just before E goes off and you vault to her, you land beside her.

Quinn really isn't weak.


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footfoe

Senior Member

03-04-2013

just some cool down / ratio tweaks and she'll be fine.


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Shanghaiii

Senior Member

03-04-2013

from what i see in playiing/laning with her. She is like cait or ashe or urgot, a sustained attacker. She is not bursty for sure, but she deals damage over the long run. She isnt a instaa-gib champ like others, she is useful for sustaining damage.

If you want burst, thats akali's or veigars job.


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WeakRoSe

Member

03-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightails View Post
uh... She's an extremely annoying top with the ability to easily counter. Sure her ult does exactly opposite of what she wants but, it ALSO gives her something she wants. Movement speed. It also makes her a adequate pusher. Q is extremely aggravating and pisses people off bot lane, W is Ashes E, which she doesn't need. Plus it gives her AS when she lands her innate. E is good for burst damage/slow and can even be something to catch up to champions, like Caitlyn. Just before E goes off and you vault to her, you land beside her.

Quinn really isn't weak.
What you just said can be said about any champion regardless of how weak they are. Heck everyone agrees that WW is weak and needs a rework but i can easily point out the strenghts and or purposes of there spell and casually say there not weak at the end. The point is that in comparison to other carries she is underpowered. Her Q doesnt scale into the late game, her W is useless other than while being in valor form, her E slows but puts you in danger, her R i already went over and doesnt deal damage. You didnt respond to anything I said, you just said what you wanted to say and ended with Quin isnt weak...



Quote:
Originally Posted by Shanghaiii View Post
from what i see in playiing/laning with her. She is like cait or ashe or urgot, a sustained attacker. She is not bursty for sure, but she deals damage over the long run. She isnt a instaa-gib champ like others, she is useful for sustaining damage.

If you want burst, thats akali's or veigars job.
I compare alot of Quinns spells to Caitlyn and it is extremely obvious that Caitlyn is the better champion, so how you group them in the same category is beyond me.


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Gimpyloser

Senior Member

03-04-2013

She has a lot of utility and team fight potential. AOE blind in a team fight is much more useful than you give it credit for, as is the vision from Heightened Senses. When contesting dragon or baron and all the wards are being cleared that small window of vision can mean a lot. You seem to be upset that her abilities don't do a lot of damage which is true, but they add a lot of utility and ultimately most of an ADC's damage is from autoattacks, not burst, with a few exceptions (Ezreal, Graves come to mind). All in all I think this is an extremely unfair assessment and a very premature one. I see a lot of potential in this champion and expect to see her shine as people gain experience with her.


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WeakRoSe

Member

03-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gimpyloser View Post
She has a lot of utility and team fight potential. AOE blind in a team fight is much more useful than you give it credit for, as is the vision from Heightened Senses. When contesting dragon or baron and all the wards are being cleared that small window of vision can mean a lot. You seem to be upset that her abilities don't do a lot of damage which is true, but they add a lot of utility and ultimately most of an ADC's damage is from autoattacks, not burst, with a few exceptions (Ezreal, Graves come to mind). All in all I think this is an extremely unfair assessment and a very premature one. I see a lot of potential in this champion and expect to see her shine as people gain experience with her.
Well said, she does have alot of utility. But how does utility go towards winning a lane? Winning team fights? 1v1 potential. She has great utilities but good utilities are something you see more on supports and junglers. Not on ADC's. Yes it is true that an ADC's main damage is there abilities and even that is arguable but to say that because of that they do not need damaging abilities is itself a premature assessment. Caitlyn has 2 forms of CC and yet all her spells does damage, and even champs like graves who have CC like slows and attack speed boost eclipse quins ability. I am not saying she is extremely weak, I am not saying she is unplayable, I am saying she is underpowered and that when chosing people are going to go for Cait or Graves instead of picking a weaker spin off of them


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Alvan Yakatori

Senior Member

03-04-2013

I think if they made it so her ult refreshes her cool downs she'd be much better. Because currently if she uses ll her abilities then ults then all she has is her ult reactivation and some bonus attack speed. But other than that she is fine in my opinion.


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Sir Longfellow

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Senior Member

03-04-2013

Quinn does a lot of damage, you just sound like you don't know how to use Harrier. Harrier does 63+13L+1.5BonusAD. This is loosely comparable to KhaZix's Q, and dwarfs Vayne's and GP's Q's (which are more similar in function) and it's an innate passive.

You also don't seem to know how to level her. You criticize Q's damage, then say you should level it first. Q is a utility move, my preference would be to level W so R is more powerful once you get it and you get an AS bonus which is more significant than a little base damage and a negligible (in early game) cooldown decrease. W also has potential to be up indefinitely in battle, which is a big deal at 40%. MF gets a 50% active for 6s on 16s, Graves gets 70% 4s on 20-14s. And if you can't respect 80% perma AS I have nothing to say to you lol.

You also seem to forget that sky strike is a large AOE AND an execute, not a single target. And couple with Tag Team it's a very impressive ultimate. Again if you can't appreciate this ultimate there's not much I can say, it speaks for itself.


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PerfidiousAlbion

Senior Member

03-04-2013

I think her ult is a lot better than people credit it. It's a 20-80% MS steroid for 20s. It might not be flashy but it is invaluable. It has a strong, if situational, AoE nuke. Those two facets on their own make it a worthwhile nuke. The fact that it makes her an excellent chaser and doubles her steroid are great early game but are largely a wash late game because of the deficite of it making her melee. However, I see nothing wrong with that as late game it gives her split-pushing potential. The only change I'd like to see to it is having it's cooldown lowered by 20sec at each level. 140 is a bit much.

Her E is extremely finicky, I'll give you that. The fact that you can be CC'd while using it makes several targets unviable. However, it's still effective as a disengage once someone has already closed the gap, and it doubles as a chase tool.

Quinn is pretty solid with just a few minor tweaks needed. She's not half as bad as a lot of people want to make her out to be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Longfellow View Post
Quinn does a lot of damage, you just sound like you don't know how to use Harrier. Harrier does 63+13L+1.5BonusAD. This is loosely comparable to KhaZix's Q, and dwarfs Vayne's and GP's Q's (which are more similar in function) and it's an innate passive.
You're mistaken. Her passive is 15 base + 10 x level + 5 x level over 14 + 0.5 bonus AD. It's strong for a passive, but nowhere near to Kha'zix's Q and really isn't in anyway similar to either Vayne's nor GP's respective Q's.


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