My idea for a Poppy ability rework

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Thief of Space

Senior Member

03-04-2013

Valiant Fighter (passive):
Now gives Poppy 3-4-5% damage reduction for each time she gets hurt or attacks anything up to 3 times (only up to 3 times on getting attacked or attacking an enemy champion)

I think this would let her be a bit beefier in teamfights but sometimes I think her old passive is just fine, this could make her OP or worse IDK.

Devastating Blow:
Now deals Mixed damage and refund 15% of the mana cost if it kills a target.
It scales off of 50% of her bonus AD and 50% AP. Physical damage is the scalings while the magic damage is based on the health percentage.

Paragon of Demacia:
Now gives a small amount of Magic resist (a bit less than armor) and the bonus AD counts towards her Q.

Heroic Charge:
It now behaves like a skill shot similar to Gragas belly slam, but now it boosts off of bonus AD and AP and deals magic damage and will stun for .5 seconds if you don't hit a wall and 2 seconds if you do and deal bonus damage.

Diplomatic Immunity (I have):
Remains the same.


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HudsonMo

Junior Member

03-04-2013

poppy needs a lot of mana and because of this she needs a manamune / muramana. This means she has to go an ap ish build to get most of her dmg output, not AD. As you know right from lvl 1 her AD sucks. Making her Q scale 50% ap and 50% ad would make her weaker, not stronger. Her ad at lvl 1 will be less than 50 and your ap less than 50 making your Q actually suck early game. Heroic charge would fail every time if a minion gets in the way. Likewise you got it scaling off of ap/ad which makes her weaker. Finally your passive idea nerfs her as well, unless that is your suggestion to be added on top of her current passive which reduces all dmg by champions by 50% if the damage is over 10% of poppy's hp, which should be around 200 dmg or less. Likewise the difference between 53% and 55% dmg reduction compared to the current 50% damage reduction is very little, it would not help over all in any significant way.

Magic resist on paragon of demacia would be nice but since poppy is not supposed to be built a full AD, the bonus ad is not a real big deal.


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GlyphTsen

Senior Member

03-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thief of Space View Post
Valiant Fighter (passive):
Now gives Poppy 3-4-5% damage reduction for each time she gets hurt or attacks anything up to 3 times (only up to 3 times on getting attacked or attacking an enemy champion)

I think this would let her be a bit beefier in teamfights but sometimes I think her old passive is just fine, this could make her OP or worse IDK.

Devastating Blow:
Now deals Mixed damage and refund 15% of the mana cost if it kills a target.
It scales off of 50% of her bonus AD and 50% AP. Physical damage is the scalings while the magic damage is based on the health percentage.

Paragon of Demacia:
Now gives a small amount of Magic resist (a bit less than armor) and the bonus AD counts towards her Q.

Heroic Charge:
It now behaves like a skill shot similar to Gragas belly slam, but now it boosts off of bonus AD and AP and deals magic damage and will stun for .5 seconds if you don't hit a wall and 2 seconds if you do and deal bonus damage.

Diplomatic Immunity (I have):
Remains the same.

Devastating Blow, currently, is an "on-next-hit" effect, that deals her current damage, plus the base damage, plus AP ratio of 0.6, plus 8% of the targets maximum health up to a maximum based on the rank of the skill.

In other words, it already scales with 100% of your AD (including from Paragon and base AD) already. Unless you're suggesting that it should deal another 50% of bonus AD on top of that?


In any event, I agree that mana is an issue, but I don't think a refund on Q is the answer, or at least not on using Q to last hit, I'd rather just have a flat boost to mana pool and/or regen. Part of this is that I feel like it somewhat defeats the purpose since you don't WANT to last-hit with Q, and would rather use it to counter-harass a melee champion ideally. Sure, you'll end up using it to last-hit from time to time, but that's usually because you're being pushed back too much, and if you have better mana/regen to begin with, you'll still be able to use it for that but have better overall flexibility.


I'm not a fan of making Heroic Charge a skillshot like this, especially not one that can go over walls. That's just too much escape capability on a champion that's designed to be able to dive in 1v5 and kill a couple people already. Even if it wouldn't go over walls, she's already got a lot of speed with W and survivability with Ult, W, and Passive.

Speaking of the passive, your suggestion isn't a bad one, honestly, but her Passive is already good (if a bit confusing to new players at first due to wording) so I don't think it really needs to change.


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AWildRaticate

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Senior Member

03-04-2013

Am I the only person who thinks Poppy is already really strong? Every single game I've jungled Poppy in I've either won, or lost but still been the strongest player on my team. She only really has mana issues until you buy a Lizard Elder and Sheen, and her weak early game is similar to Nasus or Veigar. She doesn't have infinite scaling, but a late-game Poppy can literally just do whatever and kill whoever she wants as long as she ults a low priority target and goes after high priority targets. Making her easier to play would eliminate the risk/reward of playing her and getting her to her late-game dominance.


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Sogreth

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Senior Member

03-04-2013

Manamune on Poppy? Never have I had to make this on her. I build TF and that's all. Maybe a Frozen Heart, which I normally make late in the game for the armor, CDR and mana.

I don't know how you've been playing Poppy, nor will I judge how you play her, but it's pretty rare that I will oom in lane, unless I'm doing it on purpose because I'm going to recall soon or something.

Also, don't use your Q to farm minions, unless they are cannon minions because they gives tones of gold. You have to realize, Poppy has an extremely weak early game, one of the worst, but she makes up for it by being almost unstoppable late game, she WILL kill your carry, and there is little to nothing you can do to stop her.

When I play her I go top, I build a Philo Stone and farm what I can, I max Paragon of Demacia first to deal with any harass the enemy wants to throw at me. And that's it, I grin and bear it, farm what little I can, hope for some good ganks, grab my TF, and proceed to kill the enemy carry over and over again.


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Sogreth

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Senior Member

03-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by AWildRaticate View Post
as long as she ults a low priority target and goes after high priority targets.
You'd be better off ulting the high-priority targets and killing them instantly. I would not want to miss out on that 40% increased damage, and that includes 40% increased damage to Ignite.


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GlyphTsen

Senior Member

03-04-2013

The issues with Poppy's mana:

In Lane: Unless you have a good jungle ganker coming consistently to your lane (entirely valid and worthwhile option mind) it's very easy to get pushed under your tower by most other top lanes. While it's probably "better" for them to freeze the lane and push Poppy out, it still eventually causes the same problem, since a frozen lane will still eventually push to tower in most cases. Poppy ends up needing to use skills then in order to get a decent amount of CS, and thus can end up having mana issues that make it even more difficult for her to respond-to/deal with harass or enemy ganks. In all honestly, more mana helps, but it wouldn't be all that significant, she'd still have one of if not the worst early games, but it would be slightly more difficult to shut her out completely, and it would be a little easier to get to relevance sooner.

In Jungle: Even with Paragon (which is great for jungle-poppy), she's pretty slow unless she uses abilities, so that means she'll either want to take Blue for herself more often than others would, or she'll have very limited lane presence due to lack of clear-speed or mana. Extra mana would probably help Jungle Poppy a little more than Lane Poppy, but she still probably won't be a top pick due to positional requirements of her ganks (though she is great for dives).


At present, these early-game mana issues (which are much more manageable later because of both items and how the game grows those stats in general) are a little bit too much in my view, on top of her other issues.


That said, I've never gotten Manamune on Poppy either, or even Frozen Heart for that matter. I find that Trinity/Bane and some MP/5 like Grail or Morellonomicon or Reverie (or Lizard item if jungling) is plenty... but it takes too much time to get to that point IME.


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Sogreth

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Senior Member

03-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by GlyphTsen View Post
Poppy ends up needing to use skills then in order to get a decent amount of CS, and thus can end up having mana issues that make it even more difficult for her to respond-to/deal with harass or enemy ganks.
This is a big weakness of her though, not every champ in the entire game can be balanced through all parts of a match. Look at LB and Lee Sin, they become almost completely useless late game, but their early is extremely powerful. Poppy is the exact same way....just opposite.

Her early game is something you have to sacrifice for her powerful late game presence.


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GlyphTsen

Senior Member

03-04-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sogreth View Post
This is a big weakness of her though, not every champ in the entire game can be balanced through all parts of a match. Look at LB and Lee Sin, they become almost completely useless late game, but their early is extremely powerful. Poppy is the exact same way....just opposite.

Her early game is something you have to sacrifice for her powerful late game presence.
Agreed (well, mostly, Lee Sin still adds a lot of utility late game and he doesn't fall off as hard as LB in my view). I'm not asking for Poppy to become amazing early game. Her kit is already geared towards late-game over early game, and even with a mana increase her early game will still be pretty bad, as I said in my later post above.

My issue is that the degree if weakness is too much at present. I think her early game should be weak because of her potential (same with Nasus) just not as weak as it currently is.


Put it this way, if early-game capability was on a scale of "One to Ten" then Poppy would be at a 1. I'd like to bump that up to a 2 or maybe 3... still pretty bad, but not AS bad.