Why are they there?

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OriginalA

Senior Member

03-04-2013

I actually prefer the broken up response. It makes it more clear what specific part you are referring to.

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Originally Posted by Cerubois View Post
Neither Kassadin or Malzahar has immense power in themselves. They may have enough power to contest the other, but they aren't a threat to the world at large. Hence, the League allows them, just as it allows people like Vayne and Varus. They don't threaten the world's safety, even if their goals are sinister. (And no, Malzahar simply saying the Void is coming does not really threaten the world)
Malzahar's cult is growing, and he himself is clearly of dubious intent. Kassadin's fight against Malzahar is also disrupting the peace. They are very shady characters.

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What I referred to when I mentioned Kalamanda is the enormous amount of build-up that led to the mini-war between Noxua and Demacia, and how at any point, the League could have stepped in and stopped it before the fighting happened. The corruption only created the events that led to the fighting, not the delayed response by the League. Only after people started dying did they finally swoop in and time-stop the entire piece of land.
I'm actually failing to see your point here. Could you please clarify it? I get that you are pointing out that the League effectively sacrificed Kalamanda as a habitable area in order to prevent a war between Noxus and Demacia, but I don't see your point beyond that.

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Rengar may like to hunt, but he was devastated by his 'draw' with Kha'Zix. I can only imagine what actually being killed might do to his pride...
This is Rengar's Lore before he met Kha'Zix:
"No beasts in his domain proved challenging prey, and without formidable adversaries to push his limits, Rengar's spirit waned. He feared that no worthwhile game remained, that he would never again feel the thrill of the hunt."

He was bored.
This is his after he met Kha'Zix:
"Rengar lost an eye, but the most grievous blow was to his pride. He had never before failed to make the kill. Worse yet, the severity of his injuries forced him to retreat. Over the following days, he hovered on the threshold between life and death. He was wracked with pain, but beneath it, he felt a glimmer of joy. The hunt was on."

See that "glimmer of joy". Kha'Zix's victory over Rengar did damage his pride, but it also reinvigorated him. He finally has worthy prey! He has a reason to continue on. He now knew he had found people better than him who could challenge him; force him to demand more from himself so that he could overcome them. His hunts were no longer effortless pass times for now he hunted the most dangerous game of all. And in time he will have grown strong enough to kill Kha'Zix outside of the Field of Justice and mount his head on his wall.

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On a larger note, Kha'Zix only hunts to feed his obsession with evolving. He would fear becoming stagnant, as his goal would be lost. And here he is, in the League, with no chance to evolve.
Kha'Zix's lore:
"Kha'Zix hungers most to conquer and consume Rengar, the one beast he considers his equal. "
"Finally, near death, they reluctantly separated. As his wounds closed, Kha'Zix burned with anticipation at the idea of devouring one who could match the Void's strength. He resumed his search for powerful prey with renewed vigor. Someday, Kha'Zix will feast on Rengar. "

Rengar is in the League by the time Kha'Zix is healthy enough to pursue him. Besides, I would imagine that Kha'Zix does gain some evolutionary bonus for each kill he makes on the Field of Justice. I think there is some massive gameplay/story segregation on that part.

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In any case, they needn't have come to the League to fight each other. How did they even know the place existed? Why did they both figure the other would go there? Why wouldn't they just return to the spot where they fought and continue their battle until someone won? They literally have no reason to be in the League. "To fight" is by far the weakest excuse in the game.
I agree that "to fight" is the weakest excuse. I also think that they both have very flimsy reasons to be there But both of them want to test their strength against the most powerful beings on the continent, which is to say both of them are very shallow characters. Those most powerful beings are in the League, or at least the largest collection of beings that are among the strongest. Things like the real Baron Nashor are undoubtedly stronger than any single Champion or Summoner, but that thing is going to be really hard to find even for a single fight as opposed to the Champions on the Field of Justice which are fairly easy to find and get a consistent challenge from. Also, Rengar went there to grow. Kha'Zix just followed him. As for how would they know where the most important place on the continent is? Do you know where the capital city of your nation is? Your state (assuming that's applicable)? Which city is the most important? People learn these things. Besides, were do you think Rengar got his cyborg eye? I doubt he got it in the wild with a box of scraps. He probably went to Piltover for medical treatment and got guided to the League from there. Kha'Zix just followed afterward.

[/quote]They did not fight on League grounds. The summoners were required to follow Kog'Maw into the mountains to find them. But I won't nitpick about that further.[/quote]

"Kassadin and Malzahar were arrested by League Adjudicators yesterday evening when they were discovered battling in the mountains outside the Institute of War. "

Yes, okay, they were in the mountains. Remember what you just said: They followed Kog'Maw to them. Kog'Maw isn't exactly fast, and considering how quickly you can kill someone in the game they probably hadn't been fighting for very long. True, they didn't know if Kog'Maw started after Malzahar at the start of the fight or if he was summoned by Malzahar, but the fact remains that they were still relatively close to the Institute of War.

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I suppose this leads to a more conflicting territory in the LoL's lore. Namely, how much can the League protect people? Are champions 'on their own' as soon as they step off the property? Can someone be killed just as easily inside the League itself?
More importantly, how severe is the punishment for murdering a fellow champion? I imagine it would be quite harsh, with no room for a repeat case.
Not sure about #1
#2 is actually answered in the same Kassadin vs Malzahar article. "These two have a history of disagreement, which is not unusual for League champions, but violence between League champions off the Fields of Justice is unacceptable." Incidentally this causes Jayce's lore to make a bit more sense. Since he went all vigilante on Viktor and then became a champion, any reprisal for his actions against Viktor would have to occur on the Fields of Justice instead of Viktor just attacking Jayce at Piltover.
#3 That depends on what you mean. A knife in your neck is going to have the same effect anywhere. If it happens on the Field of Justice then you come back to live due to the Nexuses. If not then you are dead. If it happens on League grounds though there are many very powerful Summoners greatly increase the chances of you getting medical attention as soon as possible as well as breaking up the fight before lethal damage can occur.
#3B: It was considered appropriate to expel Kassadin and Malzahar from the League for their fight in the mountains. The only reason why they didn't is because they " have very good, very confidential reasons for proceeding this way".... Considering that they did summon Cho'Gath from the Void, these people are probably the few in Valoran that actually pay attention to what Kass and Mal are saying when it comes to that stuff, so their reasons are probably Void related.

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So, if Zed could somehow kill the entire Kinkou at once (doubtful), he would still end up incarcerated, or worse, by the League. Half of his goal would be complete, but at the cost of the other half. The same goes for Varus.
That would be truer for Zed than for Varus. Varus already forfeited his life when he used that dark power to enhance himself. He's committed to revenge. "This was a path from which there could be no return. With grim resolve, he condemned himself to the black flames, feeling malevolent energy bond to his skin... and with it, the promise of ruin." Varus couldn't care less for any consequences on the condition that he gets to kill everyone on his list. Zed would like to live through it and be free afterwards. Zed also has a grudge against Shen and Shen is in the League. Killing Shen repeatedly on the Fields of Justice will just have to do in the mean time.


[/quote]On a more realistic note, Zed and Varus' goals are unattainable simply because Riot cannot kill off champions. That might sound like reverse logic, but think about it. They can change city-state situations, they can modify the world, but they cannot kill off characters. So why would they decide to write someone's lore based on them wanting to kill certain characters?[/quote]

Kayle and Morgana. Leona and Diana. Zed and the Kinkou. Varus and the Noxians. Demacia and the Noxians as a whole. Swain and Jarvan IV. Rengar and Kha'Zix. Vayne and everybody who uses dark magic. Warwick and Soraka. Urgot and Garen.
Well gee. MAYBE because having personal vendettas is a popular trope! Maybe because being able to kill the person you hate repeatedly would be a powerful motivator for them. But yes, I do see how they wrote themselves into corners for those bits. Some of those can have ending that don't result in the destruction of one of them. Others... eh.


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It's small things like this that make me doubt whether people actually read the lore. :/
Lee Sin accidentally killed one boy when he tried to summon a beast from the Plague Jungles, while studying under the League as a summoner. He left the League to become a monk and find atonement. Only after his display in Ionia, where he set himself on fire to protest Noxus' occupation, did he consider coming back as a champion.
Did YOU read the Lore?
"He barely had time to look the boy in what was once his face before the jumbled human mass fell lifeless to the floor. A League investigation later revealed that the boy's ENTIRE VILLAGE WAS OBLITERATED by feedback from the ritual."

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I'll say it again. Syndra is an enemy of the LEAGUE, not just Ionia. She apparently has an unlimited amount of magic power, and she recklessly uses it for her own purposes. This could eventually become catastrophic, seeing as she continues to grow stronger every day. Thus, the League would need to stop it before it started literally tearing the world apart.
She hasn't done anything against the League nor is implied to have go so far out of control as to be outside of their laws on magical restrictions.
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As much as Riot has yet to say what happened between Syndra's bio and her arrival at the League, there is one thing that stands out. She fought a legion of people between those two points (see her in-game taunt). A legion is a lot of people (roughly 5000). Considering the fact that she's entirely reckless and arrogant, she likely DID attack Ionia, before the League stopped and captured her. It makes sense, considering her situation and personality.
That is conjecture that the League stopped her. But you are right that she probably did fight a legion of Ionian troops. How many that is depends on what you go by. A Roman Legion was 5000 troops. A British Legion is less than 500 troops (250 calvery, 200 infantry). How many she actually fought is up for debate outside of "a lot".
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Yes, the League has many powerful people within it. The ones with dangerous intentions are imprisoned. So I'm not sure why you're bringing them up while claiming the League doesn't imprison them. (And Renekton wasn't summoned to be a slave! Are you sure you're reading properly?)
Renekton was summoned with the intent for him to fight in the Fields of Justice. They did enslave him because of his reaction to Nasus. I did exaggerate a bit though.

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You also seem to forget that it's not simply the champions that are under the protection of the League, but the City-states that support it. Before the Ionian War, Ionia was isolationist. They weren't part of the League, and this allowed Noxus to invade it freely. However, by the end, Ionia had given in and joined the League, and this led to the end of the war. The results of it were determined through League matches.
I'm aware of this. What's your point?


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Cerubois

Senior Member

03-05-2013

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Originally Posted by OriginalA View Post
Malzahar's cult is growing, and he himself is clearly of dubious intent. Kassadin's fight against Malzahar is also disrupting the peace. They are very shady characters.
Shady characters aren't a threat to the safety of the world at large. The League permits people like Leblanc and Shaco because regardless of their ill intentions, they will not be able to cause catastrophic damage to the world. The only way Malzahar could be a threat is if the Void actually does end up invading, and even then, the League wouldn't be able to prevent that by imprisoning Malzahar. He's mostly harmless right now.

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Originally Posted by OriginalA View Post
I'm actually failing to see your point here. Could you please clarify it? I get that you are pointing out that the League effectively sacrificed Kalamanda as a habitable area in order to prevent a war between Noxus and Demacia, but I don't see your point beyond that.
That kind of was my point. You claimed that wasn't how the League works, and that it was the fault of one corrupt summoner. But it was at the League's discretion on when to act. They chose to sacrifice people in order to make their job easier. I wanted you to agree that they're self-interested, just as anyone else is.


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Originally Posted by OriginalA View Post
(Rengar and Kha'Zix stuff)
Basically, Riot has asked us to grasp at a bunch of unlikely happenings in order to believe that Rengar and Kha'Zix would end up at the League.
I'll agree that Rengar's personality might fit just as much as Wukong's, though he's not as compelling.
But Kha'Zix is still sitting here stagnant. It's incredibly unlikely that he's actually evolving within the League, otherwise he would become unstoppable rather quickly. It would be like Cho'Gath keeping his largest size all the time.

But Rengar showing up at Piltover wanting a new eye? Can you imagine what kind of response that would get? Piltover's been exposed to a lot of technology, but this is likely the first lion-man hunter they've ever seen, and he's demanding out of the blue that they craft an eye for him, having only a bunch of trophy heads as bartering tools.

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Originally Posted by OriginalA View Post
That would be truer for Zed than for Varus. Varus already forfeited his life when he used that dark power to enhance himself. He's committed to revenge. "This was a path from which there could be no return. With grim resolve, he condemned himself to the black flames, feeling malevolent energy bond to his skin... and with it, the promise of ruin." Varus couldn't care less for any consequences on the condition that he gets to kill everyone on his list. Zed would like to live through it and be free afterwards. Zed also has a grudge against Shen and Shen is in the League. Killing Shen repeatedly on the Fields of Justice will just have to do in the mean time.
I think Varus might wallow in regret if he isn't able to fulfill his goals. He sacrificed his life to kill. Now imagine he loses his opportunity to kill. What did he sacrifice his life for?

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Originally Posted by OriginalA View Post
Kayle and Morgana. Leona and Diana. Zed and the Kinkou. Varus and the Noxians. Demacia and the Noxians as a whole. Swain and Jarvan IV. Rengar and Kha'Zix. Vayne and everybody who uses dark magic. Warwick and Soraka. Urgot and Garen.
Well gee. MAYBE because having personal vendettas is a popular trope! Maybe because being able to kill the person you hate repeatedly would be a powerful motivator for them. But yes, I do see how they wrote themselves into corners for those bits. Some of those can have ending that don't result in the destruction of one of them. Others... eh.
Kayle and Morgana are actually explained. Kayle is there to prevent the summoners from interfering with her world. Morgana's there because she wanted the opposite. Now she's content with 'killing' her sister over and over. She doesn't seem to mind that she keeps coming back.
Leona doesn't want to kill Diana. Diana does want to kill the heretics. I think most people had understood, though, that Diana would have trouble killing Leona, not only due to the sheer power the avatar has, but the fact that Leona would probably reach out to her to help her, instead of fight.
Zed and Varus we covered. They make little sense.
Swain and Jarvan have a history, but they also have an obligation to serve their country. They joined the League for their obligations first and foremost, thus they still have a reason to be there.
Demacia and Noxus are in the League for political reasons. You're ignoring that to extend your point.
Vayne is another I'm not really content with. Half the champions in the League would be targets to her, yet for any amount of overlap between her judgement and the JoJ being canceled, she hadn't actually attacked any of the champions. Seems like her goal has met some impassable obstacle.
Warwick was reinvented to have his unattainable goal recently, remember? Before, he was simply having fun and shoving Soraka's failure in her face.
Garen has his obligations to Demacia. He has reason to be there. Urgot is... an undead machine soldier. Or something. But he's still a soldier for Noxus. Reason to be there.

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Originally Posted by OriginalA View Post
Did YOU read the Lore?
"He barely had time to look the boy in what was once his face before the jumbled human mass fell lifeless to the floor. A League investigation later revealed that the boy's ENTIRE VILLAGE WAS OBLITERATED by feedback from the ritual."
...Touche. I don't know how I missed that every time I checked Lee Sin's lore.

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Originally Posted by OriginalA View Post
She hasn't done anything against the League nor is implied to have go so far out of control as to be outside of their laws on magical restrictions.

That is conjecture that the League stopped her. But you are right that she probably did fight a legion of Ionian troops. How many that is depends on what you go by. A Roman Legion was 5000 troops. A British Legion is less than 500 troops (250 calvery, 200 infantry). How many she actually fought is up for debate outside of "a lot".
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Originally Posted by OriginalA View Post
I'm aware of this. What's your point?
Syndra is trying to destroy one of the League's supporting city-states. She is a threat to the world's safety in her own magic power, and in her personal vendetta. If she has enough power to rip apart the land, she may one day have the power to destroy a city with a wave of her hand. This would have serious side-effects for Runeterra.

The idea that she fought a legion of Ionian troops, regardless of number, means it would have taken place at one location. Syndra would have made a beeline for the Placidium atop her flying castle, with no obstructions in her way. As soon as she got there, she'd have attacked, and given Ionia's now-strong ties to the League, the summoners would have gotten involved and stopped her.

She is an enemy of the League. I can go on for days about this.

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Originally Posted by OriginalA View Post
Renekton was summoned with the intent for him to fight in the Fields of Justice. They did enslave him because of his reaction to Nasus. I did exaggerate a bit though.
Renekton was not actually summoned intentionally. He simply happened to get caught up in Nasus' summoning. When he eventually burst into the League seeking to kill Nasus, he was restrained and imprisoned. (I think that puts us at 1-1 for not reading :P)


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OriginalA

Senior Member

03-05-2013

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Originally Posted by Cerubois View Post
That kind of was my point. You claimed that wasn't how the League works, and that it was the fault of one corrupt summoner. But it was at the League's discretion on when to act. They chose to sacrifice people in order to make their job easier. I wanted you to agree that they're self-interested, just as anyone else is.
I don't see how this makes them selfish. I see how their dealings with Swain on the Kalamanda matter makes them selfish and corrupt, but not this. To me, they were giving Noxus and Demancia a chance to retrain themselves. The League only stepping in after war broke out, and even then only when they feared that it would escalate into magical nukes.

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Basically, Riot has asked us to grasp at a bunch of unlikely happenings in order to believe that Rengar and Kha'Zix would end up at the League.
I'll agree that Rengar's personality might fit just as much as Wukong's, though he's not as compelling.
But Kha'Zix is still sitting here stagnant. It's incredibly unlikely that he's actually evolving within the League, otherwise he would become unstoppable rather quickly. It would be like Cho'Gath keeping his largest size all the time.
I think that Kha'Zix's stagnation here is game mechanics in order to maintain balance. Or perhaps he has shifted is MO. Going after small, easily attainable prey isn't going to benefit him much at all. If he takes down a champion, however, he seems to get a big boost relatively quickly judging by his in-game metamorphosis... But it is also acknowledged that within the matches it is the very fact that they are attached to a Summoner that is the cause of their seemingly under-powered nature and why they have to relearn everything at the start of a match. So that would imply that Kha'Zix already has all of those abilities from the very start. Anyways there is a break between the lore and the game mechanics when it concerns Kha'Zix.

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But Rengar showing up at Piltover wanting a new eye? Can you imagine what kind of response that would get? Piltover's been exposed to a lot of technology, but this is likely the first lion-man hunter they've ever seen, and he's demanding out of the blue that they craft an eye for him, having only a bunch of trophy heads as bartering tools.
You have a better idea where he got his new eye then? The idea is humorous though.

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I think Varus might wallow in regret if he isn't able to fulfill his goals. He sacrificed his life to kill. Now imagine he loses his opportunity to kill. What did he sacrifice his life for?
He has already taken some of his vengeance. Getting the Champions is just the final part. He commited to this path long before he signed up.

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Leona doesn't want to kill Diana. Diana does want to kill the heretics. I think most people had understood, though, that Diana would have trouble killing Leona, not only due to the sheer power the avatar has, but the fact that Leona would probably reach out to her to help her, instead of fight.
Wut? Leona wants to kill Diana badly. She wants Diana to die for what she did to the Solari Elders. Diana doesn't want to kill heretics; she IS the heretic! Diana has hoped that Leona would reach out in an attempt to help her. Turns out, Leona didn't appreciate Diana going on a murder spree as much as Diana tried to justify it. Leona is out for blood. The very fact that Leona didn't side with Diana is the entire reason they are enemies. Diana had tried to plead her case with Leona but Leona decided that she couldn't get past the fact that Diana has slaughtered quite a lot of people. Now Diana is a heretic to the Solari and sentenced to die, on the run from Leona whom has sided fully with the Solari due to Diana's murder spree, and she may also be an enemy of the Rakkor as a whole since the Solari seems to have power over them. Diana is in the League to buy herself time until she can destroy the Solari for rejecting her and Leona for not siding with her.

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Syndra is trying to destroy one of the League's supporting city-states. She is a threat to the world's safety in her own magic power, and in her personal vendetta. If she has enough power to rip apart the land, she may one day have the power to destroy a city with a wave of her hand. This would have serious side-effects for Runeterra.
Annie could have this potential too in the years to come. Ryze certainly has this potential even now, but he is one of the good guys. I'm sure the League keeps a very close eye on people with kind of potential.

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The idea that she fought a legion of Ionian troops, regardless of number, means it would have taken place at one location. Syndra would have made a beeline for the Placidium atop her flying castle, with no obstructions in her way. As soon as she got there, she'd have attacked, and given Ionia's now-strong ties to the League, the summoners would have gotten involved and stopped her.

She is an enemy of the League. I can go on for days about this.
The League stops international conflicts. They are there to stop wars, not criminals. Syndra would have been an internal problem and as a single person instead of a faction so you can't even claim civil war.

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Renekton was not actually summoned intentionally. He simply happened to get caught up in Nasus' summoning. When he eventually burst into the League seeking to kill Nasus, he was restrained and imprisoned. (I think that puts us at 1-1 for not reading :P)
You have that backwards. Nasus was caught up in the summoning attempt for Renekton. Then Nasus made a deal with the League. Then Renekton was captured when he attacked Nasus. "What the creature does not know is that the unrefusable summons that took away his brother was actually meant to target Renekton. " --R's Judgement

My point with all of the Champions that were pitted against each other personally was simply that it makes their fights personal and thus more interesting. Same reason why Rengar's fight against Kha'Zix is interesting... because it is personal.


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Montesque64

Senior Member

03-05-2013

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But Rengar showing up at Piltover wanting a new eye? Can you imagine what kind of response that would get? Piltover's been exposed to a lot of technology, but this is likely the first lion-man hunter they've ever seen, and he's demanding out of the blue that they craft an eye for him, having only a bunch of trophy heads as bartering tools.
Rengar's lore just said that he never knew his parents, not that he was the last Pred...I mean, lion-person on Runeterra. For all we know there are caravans of Lionfolk passing through Piltover on a weekly basis. There's not really any evidence one way or another that Rengar is considered to be particularly unusual.

I've also always thought that the way that Kha'zix is presented in game (i.e. evolution being busted back to ground zero after every match) is probably more of a gameplay thing than a story point. It's not really like Cho retaining his size, either, because we see in-game that Cho's size is a temporary thing, whereas Kha's evolutions are not. I imagine both gain power from kills, but Cho's doesn't stick like Kha's does, possibly being slowly eroded by his natural metabolism.


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