Let's talk about Shyvana.

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Kyzrathnosh

Senior Member

03-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CerealBoxOfDoom View Post
shyv can apply onhit with AoE abilities, J4 cannot

shyv can apply onhit with AoE abilities

shyv can apply onhit with AoE abilities
No. No she can't. She can apply on-hit effects with a single (read: 1) ability and she must be in dragon form to do it. Her ult. And it only works on targets in front of her.

She applies it twice and completely shreds anything in her path with a Ravenous Hydra, but you'll never get to build that and win.

Now point me towards an on-hit ability you'd want to use on her other than, say.. Black Cleaver.


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CerealBoxOfDoom

Senior Member

03-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyzrathnosh View Post
No. No she can't. She can apply on-hit effects with a single (read: 1) ability and she must be in dragon form to do it. Her ult. And it only works on targets in front of her.

She applies it twice and completely shreds anything in her path with a Ravenous Hydra, but you'll never get to build that and win.

Now point me towards an on-hit ability you'd want to use on her other than, say.. Black Cleaver.
good picks
Black cleaver (armor shred)
blade of the ruined king (%hp damage and lifesteal)
frozen mallet (slows)
spirit of the elder lizard (also known as red buff. takes no item slot, slows and true damage)
wits end (large MR boost)

situational or odd picks
executioners calling (grievous wounds)
malady (MR shred)
guinsoos rageblade (AS, AP, and AD and if you drop to 50% hp you also get more AS, lifesteal, and spellvamp)

questionable picks
hextech gunblade???? (lifesteal + triggers passive up to 5 times )


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Kyzrathnosh

Senior Member

03-03-2013

Thank you for stepping away from the original point of the thread and actually managing to make me do the same, you show exceptional trolling skills.

Sadly your arguments are lacking in quite a few things.

First, comparing a manaless champ to a mana-using champ BECAUSE he uses mana? I was comparing the mechanic itself, not the resource it uses (by the way, the damage his Q does really outshines whatever paltry mana cost he has to deal with).

Second, he's still got free AS and a passive that absolutely nukes hers. So her Q loses .5 seconds CD whenever she autoattacks, sweet.

Third, and most importantly.. of course others will have things she doesn't. Pantheon autocrits on targets with less than 15% health left. Renekton heals with a wide-area circular Q that also tends to hit rather damn hard. Riven is.. Riven, don't really need to go there. Talon is an assassin with a nasty bleed, silence, gapcloser and AoE conical slow. (Could go on about this for a looong time.)


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CerealBoxOfDoom

Senior Member

03-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyzrathnosh View Post
Thank you for stepping away from the original point of the thread and actually managing to make me do the same, you show exceptional trolling skills.

Sadly your arguments are lacking in quite a few things.

First, comparing a manaless champ to a mana-using champ BECAUSE he uses mana? I was comparing the mechanic itself, not the resource it uses (by the way, the damage his Q does really outshines whatever paltry mana cost he has to deal with).

Second, he's still got free AS and a passive that absolutely nukes hers. So her Q loses .5 seconds CD whenever she autoattacks, sweet.

Third, and most importantly.. of course others will have things she doesn't. Pantheon autocrits on targets with less than 15% health left. Renekton heals with a wide-area circular Q that also tends to hit rather damn hard. Riven is.. Riven, don't really need to go there. Talon is an assassin with a nasty bleed, silence, gapcloser and AoE conical slow. (Could go on about this for a looong time.)
who are you talking to?
and yes, mana champs have to get mana eventually. Shyv can be out forever. Earlygame and lategame after full builds this is a huge issue. Its not something that should be taken lightly.
Yes, his Q outshines hers if you ignore the rest of her kit. By this same logic if I use a bigger word than you have then I'm obviously smarter than you. Drakonophobia... I win! the rest of your knowledge is irrelevant because were ignoring the rest of your skillset/kit just like how you compare shyv to J4. Bow to ahri plebeian she has more tails than you and is obviously better at everything.

As for doing things better than her, yes, other champs will. Name one bruiser who's the best at everything they do. Being the best at single things doesnt win games, being the best for the job does.

panth talon and ren are great but against a tanky team with annoying abilities I would probably want riven or shyv. If an aggressive jungler is what I need its just shyv all day long. If a toplaner is what I need then riven probably but shyv if she's a good counter and the team is competent.

Edit: also who was the one that brought up J4 anyways


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Aringhe

Senior Member

03-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CerealBoxOfDoom View Post
Black cleaver (armor shred)
blade of the ruined king (%hp damage and lifesteal)
frozen mallet (slows)
executioners calling (grievous wounds)
malady (MR shred)
spirit of the elder lizard (takes no item slot)
wits end (large MR boost)
guinsoos rageblade (AS, AP, and AD and if you drop to 50% hp you also get more AS, lifesteal, and spellvamp)
hextech gunblade???? (lifesteal + triggers passive up to 5 times )
I think that would only work well against people who don't know how to play. Shyvana would die instantly and would be almost exclusively restricted to peeling instead of diving. It'd be too situational for me to really consider good and I don't think it'd work against a competent team.


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CerealBoxOfDoom

Senior Member

03-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aringhe View Post
I think that would only work well against people who don't know how to play. Shyvana would die instantly and would be almost exclusively restricted to peeling instead of diving. It'd be too situational for me to really consider good and I don't think it'd work against a competent team.
I think it would only fail if your goal is to survive at all but I think there is some counterplay to this. But it sure as hell aint warmogs so strategery xD


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67chrome

Senior Member

03-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyzrathnosh View Post
I haven't actually looked into base stats and I'm not entirely sure how they scale on others, so I'll leave that to another person to look through should they want to.
Well, considering I have all the champion stats on my computer in a nifty graph I can post this (at least the info from when Elise was released, some things might have changed).

Shyvana

530 Health base
+ 95 per level
2145 Health @ 18

8.05 HP/5 base
+0.8 HP/5 per level
21.65 HP/5 @ 18

57.9 AD base
+3.4 AD per level
115.7 AD @ 18

0.658 attack speed base
+3.4 attack speed per level
1.04 attacks per second @ 18

21 armor base
+3.4 armor per level
78.8 armor @ 18

30 magic resistance base
+1.25 magic resistance per level
52.5 magic resistance @ 18

350 base movement speed
125 attack range
__________________________________
Average Champion:

499 Health base
+85 Health per level
1,942 Health @ 18

6.8 HP/5 base
+0.66 HP/5 per level
18.03 HP/5 @ 18

54.41 AD base
+3.2 AD per level
108.77 AD @ 18

0.650 attack speed base
+2.51% attack speed per level
0.92 attacks per second @ 18

17.77 armor base
+3.5 armor per level
77.34 armor @ 18

30 magic resistance base
+1.25 MR per level (if they're melee)
52.5 MR @ 18 (if they're melee)

338.18 movement speed
307.29 attack range
_________________________________

So, long story short - Shyvana has pretty solid base stats. Of coarse, I did get the averages from including ranged champions in the mix - but for the most part, the base stats are close enough on champions it's really hard to see much of a difference - in most fields, melee champions only have ~5% more of one attribute than a typical ranged unit, unless you're going for the very best in a certain catagory.


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Kyzrathnosh

Senior Member

03-03-2013

Amazing, Chrome. Huge thanks, going to look more into this after work tomorrow.


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Cevonis

Senior Member

03-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by 67chrome View Post
Well, considering I have all the champion stats on my computer in a nifty graph I can post this (at least the info from when Elise was released, some things might have changed).

Shyvana

530 Health base
+ 95 per level
2145 Health @ 18

8.05 HP/5 base
+0.8 HP/5 per level
21.65 HP/5 @ 18

57.9 AD base
+3.4 AD per level
115.7 AD @ 18

0.658 attack speed base
+3.4 attack speed per level
1.04 attacks per second @ 18

21 armor base
+3.4 armor per level
78.8 armor @ 18

30 magic resistance base
+1.25 magic resistance per level
52.5 magic resistance @ 18

350 base movement speed
125 attack range
__________________________________
Average Champion:

499 Health base
+85 Health per level
1,942 Health @ 18

6.8 HP/5 base
+0.66 HP/5 per level
18.03 HP/5 @ 18

54.41 AD base
+3.2 AD per level
108.77 AD @ 18

0.650 attack speed base
+2.51% attack speed per level
0.92 attacks per second @ 18

17.77 armor base
+3.5 armor per level
77.34 armor @ 18

30 magic resistance base
+1.25 MR per level (if they're melee)
52.5 MR @ 18 (if they're melee)

338.18 movement speed
307.29 attack range
_________________________________

So, long story short - Shyvana has pretty solid base stats. Of coarse, I did get the averages from including ranged champions in the mix - but for the most part, the base stats are close enough on champions it's really hard to see much of a difference - in most fields, melee champions only have ~5% more of one attribute than a typical ranged unit, unless you're going for the very best in a certain catagory.
Your argument means nothing unless you compare Shyvana to only other bruisers. including ranged and ap carrys and whatnot only screws up the statistics for comparing bruisers.


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CerealBoxOfDoom

Senior Member

03-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cevonis View Post
Your argument means nothing unless you compare Shyvana to only other bruisers. including ranged and ap carrys and whatnot only screws up the statistics for comparing bruisers.
and then teemo shows up to try and help steal blue making the statistics 100% relevant


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