About Nidalee

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CoconutHut

Junior Member

03-01-2013

Look at the champions you listed at the end... who there isn't encouraged to build tanky? Gragas MAYBE (since ROA isn't THAT much tankiness i'll give you gragas). But gragas has an instant disengage along with his high mobility.
Imagine a AP nid that builds tanky. It would be silly. The only item even remotely considered on nid are crystal scepter, and chalice. Abyssal doesn't affect her spear which is safe to say over 50% of her dmg.
Does nid have a great kit? yes, she does. But does she lack some CLEAR disadvantages as well? I think so. "Even without the 22.5 MR melee carries and assassins get, you still do burst damage in Cougar form, so it's not like it's that hard to utilize it for DPS" So, what assasin has no gap closer? it doesn't matter what the damage is, if you can't do the damage you could have 100000 dps, it wouldn't matter. What melee carry can't survive though a burst dmg from single AP champions?
AP Nid has now alone in the tier of, no CC, no true gap closer, no resist increase, no ranged waveclear and is worhtless when built tanky
(just to be clear when i say gap closer, i mean i can get to your face w/o taking full dmg combo on my way. Speed bost =/= gap closer)
Kayle has a heal, has a slow, has a speed boost, has range with wave clear, and the ultimate.
Elise has a consistent ranged medium/high dmg skill, gap closer, CC, ranged wave clear.
Jayce has a small ranged wave clear, gap closer, disengage(melee CC), speed bosst, long ranged poke.
Maokai, shen, poppy, all off gap closers, is much much tankier, and is encouraged to build tankier
Gragas, waveclear like a boss from ridiculous range, high high mobility, free sustain (which while not as bursty as nid's is still quite significant over a range of a laning phase, and since he can waveclear from far, he doesn't have to take as much dmg)


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Wrath of Sekhmet

Senior Member

03-01-2013

...and Galio would be too strong if given a lot of free MR, since he's encouraged to stack the **** out of it anyway (MR --> damage).


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67chrome

Senior Member

03-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoconutHut View Post
Look at the champions you listed at the end... who there isn't encouraged to build tanky? Gragas MAYBE (since ROA isn't THAT much tankiness i'll give you gragas). But gragas has an instant disengage along with his high mobility.
Imagine a AP nid that builds tanky. It would be silly. The only item even remotely considered on nid are crystal scepter, and chalice. Abyssal doesn't affect her spear which is safe to say over 50% of her dmg.
Does nid have a great kit? yes, she does. But does she lack some CLEAR disadvantages as well? I think so. "Even without the 22.5 MR melee carries and assassins get, you still do burst damage in Cougar form, so it's not like it's that hard to utilize it for DPS" So, what assasin has no gap closer? it doesn't matter what the damage is, if you can't do the damage you could have 100000 dps, it wouldn't matter. What melee carry can't survive though a burst dmg from single AP champions?
AP Nid has now alone in the tier of, no CC, no true gap closer, no resist increase, no ranged waveclear and is worhtless when built tanky
(just to be clear when i say gap closer, i mean i can get to your face w/o taking full dmg combo on my way. Speed bost =/= gap closer)
Kayle has a heal, has a slow, has a speed boost, has range with wave clear, and the ultimate.
Elise has a consistent ranged medium/high dmg skill, gap closer, CC, ranged wave clear.
Jayce has a small ranged wave clear, gap closer, disengage(melee CC), speed bosst, long ranged poke.
Maokai, shen, poppy, all off gap closers, is much much tankier, and is encouraged to build tankier
Gragas, waveclear like a boss from ridiculous range, high high mobility, free sustain (which while not as bursty as nid's is still quite significant over a range of a laning phase, and since he can waveclear from far, he doesn't have to take as much dmg)
You realize every tank and bruiser not named Galio, Shen, and Maokai actually get MR per level don't you? That sort of invalidates the "they build tanky anyways" argument.

From playing champions with no gap closers and escapes, I also find it offensive you're not considering Pounce a gap-closer. You can even jump over thin walls with it, and it doesn't require a target. It's a skill-shot gap closer on a negligible cooldown with no mana cost, which is pretty much the best kind there is.

Also, I've seen Nidalee build tanky. It's not silly, it's what every champion that wants to engage in melee range is more or less forced to do. Elise generally builds tanky. Bruisers build tanky. Tanks build tanky. Melee carries are completly unviable because they don't scale at all when building tanky. In the Season 2 world championship, Nidalee built Warmog's and Athene's to split push all day. In Dominion, I generally see Nidalee running with Seeker's Armguards and an assortment of +Health/+MR/+DEf AP items.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrath of Sekhmet View Post
...and Galio would be too strong if given a lot of free MR, since he's encouraged to stack the **** out of it anyway (MR --> damage).
Rammus's passive gives him free AD for his total armor, and he gets armor per level scaling though.

Every auto-attacker also gets more AD and AS from leveling up >_>


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WhskyTangoFxtrot

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Member

03-01-2013

"We took away her MR and Armor to encourage her to jump into more fights, rather than chuck spears all day."


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Wrath of Sekhmet

Senior Member

03-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by 67chrome View Post
You realize every tank and bruiser not named Galio, Shen, and Maokai actually get MR per level don't you? That sort of invalidates the "they build tanky anyways" argument.

From playing champions with no gap closers and escapes, I also find it offensive you're not considering Pounce a gap-closer. You can even jump over thin walls with it, and it doesn't require a target. It's a skill-shot gap closer on a negligible cooldown with no mana cost, which is pretty much the best kind there is.

Also, I've seen Nidalee build tanky. It's not silly, it's what every champion that wants to engage in melee range is more or less forced to do. Elise generally builds tanky. Bruisers build tanky. Tanks build tanky. Melee carries are completly unviable because they don't scale at all when building tanky. In the Season 2 world championship, Nidalee built Warmog's and Athene's to split push all day. In Dominion, I generally see Nidalee running with Seeker's Armguards and an assortment of +Health/+MR/+DEf AP items.



Rammus's passive gives him free AD for his total armor, and he gets armor per level scaling though.

Every auto-attacker also gets more AD and AS from leveling up >_>
Pounce is not a skillshot; the aiming mechanics of it are horribly bad. Plus, the reason it has such low cooldown is because it has the shortest range of any gap closer in the game, by a rather large margin if I'm not mistaken.

The difference between a tanky Elise and a tanky AP Nidalee is that the Elise does decent damage at medium-short range. Oh, and now Elise has much higher base defensive values, so building her tanky is more effective on Elise in all areas, defensive and offensive. Plus, she gets her alternate form from level 1. Oh, and she has hard cc. What the hell is the point of building tanky and going into melee range if your melee skills are poor damage with bad ratios, you have no cc, and your innate defensive stats are unusually poor? And as for the season 2 tournament, that was before they made her cougar form ****ing glass! As of now, they have made AP Nidalee's cougar form an escape and nothing more. A 40+ MR deficit is enormous, especially with MR so much more expensive to buy than it was last season.


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67chrome

Senior Member

03-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrath of Sekhmet View Post
Pounce is not a skillshot; the aiming mechanics of it are horribly bad. Plus, the reason it has such low cooldown is because it has the shortest range of any gap closer in the game, by a rather large margin if I'm not mistaken.
Requiring skill to use sounds like a skill-shot to me.

I'm pretty sure Riven's Broken Wings have a shorter range as well.


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Resther

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Senior Member

03-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fluffy1 View Post
the problem at the moment is she almost never enters cougar form unless fleeing, why would she when she can safely poke and auto attack people to death while having the same defensive benefits as a melee champ with so few downsides, while the nerfs wont do their job of encouraging cougar form they tone her down from being soo tanky for free while still being a ranged caster 80% of the time
This is exactly right.

Before, Nidalee could poke you down with Spears all day, enter Cougar form, kill you, and run away before anyone could even do significant damage to her.

Now that her Cougar form defenses have been removed, it's actually more risky to dive into the fray, and takes more skill to escape without a scratch. Tanky Nidalee is now less effective, as it should have been from the very beginning. I always saw Warmog's Nidalees, and this, combined with her Cougar Form defenses, made her that much harder to kill. AP Mages aren't supposed to be allowed to have high damage, high durability, AND insane mobility/escape capabilities. Nidalee had all 3 of these, and Riot finally did something about it.

The nerfs were absolutely justified, and I applaud Riot for making them happen.


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Wrath of Sekhmet

Senior Member

03-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Resther View Post
This is exactly right.

Before, Nidalee could poke you down with Spears all day, enter Cougar form, kill you, and run away before anyone could even do significant damage to her.

Now that her Cougar form defenses have been removed, it's actually more risky to dive into the fray, and takes more skill to escape without a scratch. Tanky Nidalee is now less effective, as it should have been from the very beginning. I always saw Warmog's Nidalees, and this, combined with her Cougar Form defenses, made her that much harder to kill. AP Mages aren't supposed to be allowed to have high damage, high durability, AND insane mobility/escape capabilities. Nidalee had all 3 of these, and Riot finally did something about it.

The nerfs were absolutely justified, and I applaud Riot for making them happen.
Every single thing you just said could just as easily be applied to Elise to justify a nerf to her. You could also add that she gets her alternate form from level 1, and has hard cc, in addition to multiple forms of %health damage and minions which block cc skillshots to allow for escape. Oh, and rappel makes her untargetable. And now she's much, much tougher than Nidalee. And has better team fight presence. And better single target assassination capability. Need I go on?


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Sagee Prime

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Senior Member

03-02-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Z0nne View Post
Aha i love how on the patch Spotlight Nidalee gets Powned over and over, she even attempts an engage and before she reaches her target
shes already half dead, does one swipe and then pulls a Ron Burgundy ("I immediately regret this decision") turns around and gets killed XD

Riot balancing is retarded and kills champions, nothing new to see here

Yeah its too bad that the only way you'll be able kill most champions in melee now is if sneezing alone would killed them already. You are better off just poking from max distance with Javelins and not using cougar at all.

Cougar will not even be good for farming unless your lane opponent is gone otherwise you will get poked down hard.


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Aurasai

Member

03-04-2013

I cannot say anything new without repeating things that were already said. This change was unnecessary and its effect was the exact opposite of what Riot ware trying to achieve (or at least what they said for its purpose). Unlike all big changes at the time in the PBE there ware absolutely no red posts regarding Nidalee and apart of the many threads with negative feedback about it, it got to live... a mistake that in my opinion is a very unprofessional move by Riot. Hopefully with enough reasonable feedback we can have this nonsense removed soon enough.


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