How to tell whether or not a champion is viable for tank role

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MisterKaras

Senior Member

02-27-2013

People dont realize that you can "pull aggro" from other people, its all about play style though

You have to be able to dive and be a threat at the same time, letting you feint once or twice and get low, making people focus you because you are an "easy kill".

Then use a cooldown (randuins, tanking ability (like balwark or poppy's ulti)) to make sure you can survive long enough to do enough damage to a squishy to scare their team into blowing most if not all of their CC/other cooldowns effectively making them focus you long enough for your team to fall on them.


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Cenerae

Senior Member

02-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Etherimp View Post
<snip>
I'm not saying that your items determine your role, I've been saying that the champion's abilities determine the role. Rammus is an initiator. He dives into the enemy team and taunts a damage dealer, while pulsing aoe damage out. He does not tank anything unless the enemy team chooses to focus fire him, outside of what his taunt allows. Sivir is a damage dealer (obviously). Garen is also a damage dealer (obviously). These two are more likely to be targets of attacks since they will be building damage items and thus are more dangerous targets.

Which is why I say that. If we define 'tank' as 'the guy who gets focus fired' as per the traditional MMO defenition, then the damage dealers are more akin to this than someone like Rammus. Simply because the enemy team is more likely to attack them than a Rammus, because the Rammus takes longer to kill and is less of a personal threat.

So basically, there are no tanks in this game. You pick champs for what they bring to a team more than how much damage they can sponge. That's why Amumu is popular for the 'tank' job, but Mundo is trash at it. Because Amumu has AoE initiation and is generally a pretty big threat even when built tanky - and despite not being very naturally tanky at all. Whereas Mundo built that way would be a big flabby sack of hp that doesn't do much except slow people.

You 'tank' by being a threat, not by virtue of how much punishment you can take. This is all I'm saying.


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SeCKS Egai

Senior Member

02-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cenerae View Post
I'm not saying that your items determine your role, I've been saying that the champion's abilities determine the role. Rammus is an initiator. He dives into the enemy team and taunts a damage dealer, while pulsing aoe damage out. He does not tank anything unless the enemy team chooses to focus fire him, outside of what his taunt allows. Sivir is a damage dealer (obviously). Garen is also a damage dealer (obviously). These two are more likely to be targets of attacks since they will be building damage items and thus are more dangerous targets.

Which is why I say that. If we define 'tank' as 'the guy who gets focus fired' as per the traditional MMO defenition, then the damage dealers are more akin to this than someone like Rammus. Simply because the enemy team is more likely to attack them than a Rammus, because the Rammus takes longer to kill and is less of a personal threat.

So basically, there are no tanks in this game. You pick champs for what they bring to a team more than how much damage they can sponge. That's why Amumu is popular for the 'tank' job, but Mundo is trash at it. Because Amumu has AoE initiation and is generally a pretty big threat even when built tanky - and despite not being very naturally tanky at all. Whereas Mundo built that way would be a big flabby sack of hp that doesn't do much except slow people.

You 'tank' by being a threat, not by virtue of how much punishment you can take. This is all I'm saying.
You're talking about tanking as someone who generates threat, but a tank generates threat and has some survivability, at least in your typical game.

Ram was a tank - and still technically is but with survivability cut to shreds he's not going to soak much. Garen generates threat by getting in your face dealing damage and having the ability to soak some up. He's no where near a Vi, but if he's positioning himself between you and your desired target, he's going to be a threat. Letting anyone get free hits on an adc is bad juju.


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Cenerae

Senior Member

02-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by xSeCKSx View Post
You're talking about tanking as someone who generates threat, but a tank generates threat and has some survivability, at least in your typical game.

Ram was a tank - and still technically is but with survivability cut to shreds he's not going to soak much. Garen generates threat by getting in your face dealing damage and having the ability to soak some up. He's no where near a Vi, but if he's positioning himself between you and your desired target, he's going to be a threat. Letting anyone get free hits on an adc is bad juju.
Yeah, I'm talking about tanking as in the traditional MMO sense. It doesn't make sense to call Rammus a tank in League. He can tank damage through his ball curl, but it doesn't mean he's going to be tanking the damage. Given the choice between a Rammus and an Akali, you can bet with certainty that Akali is getting killed first if they're both going for a carry. But she's an assassin, not what people call tanks here.

And yeah exactly, Garen tanks for his team by getting in the opposing team's face and being a big threat. Which he does by building a mix of damage and survivability. Someone like Rammus doesn't scale very well with damage, but with CDR and tank items he can be a disrupting force with constant taunts and powerball knockups and slows. Since he's going to take some effort to bring down, he may be left alone but that enables him to stay in the fight and keep doing his job.

Have I made my distinctions clear here? I get the feeling I'm doing a bad job of trying to explain. If you get what I'm getting at but disagree, that's fine.


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MisterKaras

Senior Member

02-28-2013

@Cenerae:

This is a MOBA not an MMO, there are different definitions of tanks (look at team fortress 2's definition; high DPS/high survivability)

In a MOBA a tank is defined as an initiator with high survivability and a strong suit of crowd control. Most tanky DPS fall into this category, such as "anti carries" like garen/trundle, "AD casters" like yorick/riven, "bruisers" like darius/gangplank, or "fighters" like warwick/udyr ir true support tanks like galio/ramus, even though they may be built "bruiser" or "fighter" (2 words that really mean "tanky DPS")


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deadturtle

Senior Member

02-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cenerae View Post
Yeah, I'm talking about tanking as in the traditional MMO sense. It doesn't make sense to call Rammus a tank in League. He can tank damage through his ball curl, but it doesn't mean he's going to be tanking the damage. Given the choice between a Rammus and an Akali, you can bet with certainty that Akali is getting killed first if they're both going for a carry. But she's an assassin, not what people call tanks here.

And yeah exactly, Garen tanks for his team by getting in the opposing team's face and being a big threat. Which he does by building a mix of damage and survivability. Someone like Rammus doesn't scale very well with damage, but with CDR and tank items he can be a disrupting force with constant taunts and powerball knockups and slows. Since he's going to take some effort to bring down, he may be left alone but that enables him to stay in the fight and keep doing his job.

Have I made my distinctions clear here? I get the feeling I'm doing a bad job of trying to explain. If you get what I'm getting at but disagree, that's fine.
I understand what you're getting at, but you're exaggerating the issue too much. I find it relatively simple.
Go to the endgame screen and check the damage charts. The champion who soaked the most damage is nearly always going to be a champion considered a "tank," like Cho'Gath or Mundo, or at least a tanky DPS like Darius. I don't know the last time I've seen an AD carry with the most damage taken on the team.

You can talk about enemy focus if you want, but that doesn't stop Mundo from being a tank... If you have a wall around an objective and the enemy wants to get at the objective, that doesn't make the objective the tank.
That's pretty much what I'm hearing when you call the ADCs "tanks" simply because they're the focus of the enemy.
Tanks are damage soakers who sit between the enemy and your back line, and that's precisely what they do. Again, refer to the damage taken charts; it isn't complicated.


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Etherimp

Senior Member

02-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cenerae View Post
Yeah, I'm talking about tanking as in the traditional MMO sense. It doesn't make sense to call Rammus a tank in League. He can tank damage through his ball curl, but it doesn't mean he's going to be tanking the damage. Given the choice between a Rammus and an Akali, you can bet with certainty that Akali is getting killed first if they're both going for a carry. But she's an assassin, not what people call tanks here.

And yeah exactly, Garen tanks for his team by getting in the opposing team's face and being a big threat. Which he does by building a mix of damage and survivability. Someone like Rammus doesn't scale very well with damage, but with CDR and tank items he can be a disrupting force with constant taunts and powerball knockups and slows. Since he's going to take some effort to bring down, he may be left alone but that enables him to stay in the fight and keep doing his job.

Have I made my distinctions clear here? I get the feeling I'm doing a bad job of trying to explain. If you get what I'm getting at but disagree, that's fine.
I think the problem is that it's purely a matter of semantics and you're accustomed to people misunderstanding the MOBA definition of tank and assuming it's like MMO's.

It's not. Most players know this. To call Rammus or Amumu a "Tank" is not a misnomer. Their job is to support their team with Disruption/Initiation.. Damage is nice, but not a priority.

In an ideal situation (Say, on an arranged 5's team), your ADC, APC, and Tanky DPS will do adequate damage and you will build mostly defensive items to support your team.


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420 LOL 69

Senior Member

03-01-2013

Veigar is a tank because he can peel for the carry.


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iRequiem

Senior Member

03-01-2013

LOL this thread.

A Tank is not a champion who can save another with a skill, a tank is a champion who can get in there with high chances of survivability. So the statement of garen not being a tank is somewhat false. Garen is actually classified as a bruiser whos survivability is above average and is able to deal an average amount of damage. A tank such as cho'gath is used for his survivability and his utility. All tanks have some sort of utility such as a stun, knock up, silence, etc.Garen can be used as a tank, since his q gives him movement speed and the ability to silence a champion target he is able to get in there silence who he needs to and spin. because hes in the midst of the enemy the enemy champs would burn abilities. THATs where the survivability comes in, This is why most initiators are tanky champions.


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SaveTheMaids

Senior Member

03-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Great Pyrenees View Post
In that case my Heimerdinger is a good tank P. 1 stun grenade saves my adc, calmly place 2 turrets hit R QQ rockts ... no more Xin.
http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/24092544#history

One of the best Heimers I know actually plays him that way.


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