I've never been warned or banned...

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YUNOWARDS

Senior Member

02-26-2013

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Originally Posted by 2pudge1cup View Post
Anyway, role queue isn't the issue here. A stance from them is the issue. Real guidelines are the issue. Some role queue really is the lazy way out and up until recently that was how the majority of players felt (im guessing wow pissed off its final group to come here).
I have to disagree with you here. I don't think they need to take a stance on the issue but I do think they need to give us the tools to be able to deal with the queue situation. There's a reason people lolking each other and its because at the start of the match we have 0 information on any of our teammates other than the fact they say they want mid.


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Aithòs

Senior Member

02-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2pudge1cup View Post
because i didnt want this to turn into a role queue thing but whatever here i go:



I really don't see how both sides fail. One is a pick order already coded into the game which can be proven and the other is whoever ctrl v's their thing first. I'll agree that not everyone will be happy with a decision, but at some point you have to make one.
Both sides are fail because they are random. Call order because it is determined by computer speed, Internet lag, typing speed, whatever. Pick order because it's literally random, why should I get stuck playing a role I don't want because the system puts me 5th? Even if it was based on some factor like MMR why should I get stuck playing a role I don't want because your MMR is 5 higher? There isn't a good way of deciding like that regardless of taking a hard stance, that's why it's fail. People will be upset and frustrated at getting stuck playing something they aren't good at or don't like, this trolling and raging.


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But it would move it further in the direction of rejecting untraditional. You can still at least jungle karthus or adc kennen or mid lulu/tristana without everyone throwing a fit. And no, I don't play the same game over and over again, yet anyway. I've seen enough mid rivens, mid singeds, etc. that I'm pretty happy with how things are atm.
No it wouldn't. Again, you're not really understanding what I'm saying. Right now people frown on the unconventional, you already get raged at and reported. And again, a role preference does NOT in any way determine WHO you play. Limiting champion pool is a terrible idea and I do NOT condone it. It also doesn't have to be descriptive like ADC, instead it's "bot carry" "top" "mid" "jungle" "support". Those are generic terms that can mean a lot, you're doing double bruiser bot? FINE. like I said: without position rage you're more likely to be able to actually discuss it. It cannot be worse than today, how can you even argue that? Not to mention: duo queue bottom with a friend, weight duo queues more heavily toward their top preference. It's all in how you design the system. I'm a senior systems programmer, I do this for a living and it would be EASY.


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So then why can't the duo split farm in this meta without being reported? And what if it was more efficient to cede one of those gold sources in favor of contesting an enemy's gold source? People win games doing that all the time because it's a different style of playing.
How is doing that in a role queue any different than today? People expect certain things today, that isn't the issue at all. The issue is deciding who plays where and the anger and trolling that results directly from it.


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Not really, if someone queues for ADC they'd be assuming that the other player is a support who takes no farm. If they come into champ select and say let's go a kill lane or let's split farm, gaskets would be blown. And then you'd never see a comp that favors pressuring the other team's gold source because the slots were already streamlined for them. It's a lazy way out.
Again, how is that any different than today? I call adc, I expect my support to not farm and to pick someone who can help me get fed and carry. This still isn't the issue we are talking about: deciding who goes where and the rage and trolling that comes from it. See a pattern here?

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See above. Someone who clicks the ADC thing is not going to all of a sudden switch to a second bruiser for bottom lane. Someone who queues support is not going to be able to do a roaming support with the jungler. At least today if you talk to teammates and identify strengths/weaknesses with them you can accomplish that. If you tried that with a role queue it won't happen because you'd be met with "WHY DID YOU QUEUE AS SUPPORT NOOB?"



But then you'd be in a situation where at the highest/lowest elo queue times would go up drastically because their pool of players is already small enough that forced specializing is going to make things worse.
Same thing, this isn't the issue. THIS ALREADY HAPPENS TODAY AND ISN'T AFFECTED BY A ROLE PREFERENCE. You're talking about a completely different issue and I'm sick of people mixing them. You want to play something different? Fine. With a role queue you can spend champion selection talkin about it instead of watching people rage because they got forced to play somewhere they didn't want. You didn't say a single thing in all that text that actually has anything to do with a role preference queue being bad.


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Aithòs

Senior Member

02-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by YUNOWARDS View Post
I have to disagree with you here. I don't think they need to take a stance on the issue but I do think they need to give us the tools to be able to deal with the queue situation. There's a reason people lolking each other and its because at the start of the match we have 0 information on any of our teammates other than the fact they say they want mid.

You can't have role stats without a role queue. I've talked about it before but I'm on my phone and doing the quoting in my previous post took forever. Watch for a topic from me later and I'll have a big in depth post on how I would design a queue system (which is part of what I do as a senior systems programmer).


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Aithòs

Senior Member

02-26-2013

Also, queue times at really high and really low ELO are already longer, they still won't significantly change. As I've already stated, you have people rank in order of their preference a minimum of three roles they are willing to play and match them up that way (telling them in champion select which role they got). I can tell you with 100% certainty that the times would not significantly change.


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YUNOWARDS

Senior Member

02-26-2013

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Originally Posted by Aiths View Post
You can't have role stats without a role queue. I've talked about it before but I'm on my phone and doing the quoting in my previous post took forever. Watch for a topic from me later and I'll have a big in depth post on how I would design a queue system (which is part of what I do as a senior systems programmer).
You missed the point of my post. I was just using the lolking thing as anecdotal evidence as what I'm suggesting doesn't necessarily have to be about stats (though it doesn't disclude them). All I'm trying to say is there are many other ways to go about improving pre-game without the use of role queue. In fact, that should be the very last thing they ever do.


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Aithòs

Senior Member

02-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by YUNOWARDS View Post
You missed the point of my post. I was just using the lolking thing as anecdotal evidence as what I'm suggesting doesn't necessarily have to be about stats (though it doesn't disclude them). All I'm trying to say is there are many other ways to go about improving pre-game without the use of role queue. In fact, that should be the very last thing they ever do as I believe it will lead to the eventual death of this game.

How? In what way would making a preference queue where you rank the positions you want to play make this game more boring, strict or dead than now? There are already expectations in normal draft and ranked, are you seriously going to sit there and tell me the rage and trolling and immaturity is better on top of the expectations already in place?

I've said this half a dozen times already, and pay attention to the upper case words a WELL DESIGNED system would eliminate the biggest issue which is that people have preferences where they want to play. I have already explained why it doesn't stifle creativity or choice, it doesn't do anything to the champion meta that isn't already done today. Not a single thing.

No matter what solution you propose any system where someone gets "stuck" playing a role they don't want you will have rage, trolls, feeders and toxic attitudes. Period. The only solution is to let people tell you want they want to play and match them accordingly. You can debate with me HOW to do it, there are a TON of options, but you have no real basis to stand on against the idea because the current system is already tremendously and fundamentally flawed.


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Aithòs

Senior Member

02-26-2013

Also, besides Riot taking a stance on either flawed deciding point (call or pick order) what options are there for making it better? Without asking people prior to queue what they want to play, how do you tell people they can't play what they want to? Give me even a single fair way to decide that I should have to play jungle when I am bad at it AND don't like it.

Edit: forgot to mention, your own post undermines your opinion. You want some way to determine how good people are at a role and use that as the deciding factor? How does that work exactly? Lolking can't tell where you played a champion, how does that not limit people to the meta? What about people who are trying to get better at a role? Sorry, you're not skilled enough to play that role so you don't get to practice it?

You want a role preference and you don't even know it. Select at least three roles in order of preference: top > mid > support, press queue. Queue has popped, champion screen loads (you're mid). Hey guys, I'm going to play <insert non-traditional champ> mid, been practicing this lately and I works pretty well, although if they take a bad matchup I'll play traditional.

Everyone: ok, cool. We can make that work because we all queued for other roles and now we aren't bickering needlessly. If it doesn't work we can land swap, my top champ works pretty well mid...


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Rasako

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

02-26-2013

how did this go from a tribunal sucks thread to a pick order/call order thread? lol


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YUNOWARDS

Senior Member

02-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiths View Post
No matter what solution you propose any system where someone gets "stuck" playing a role they don't want you will have rage, trolls, feeders and toxic attitudes. Period. The only solution is to let people tell you want they want to play and match them accordingly. You can debate with me HOW to do it, there are a TON of options, but you have no real basis to stand on against the idea because the current system is already tremendously and fundamentally flawed.
You talk as if role queue will magically fix everything, and its not going to. In fact, you're just going to create a whole new range of problems that will be just as bad. But since you said you'll have a huge post about this sometime I'll wait until then to start debating you on everything.


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Aithòs

Senior Member

02-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by YUNOWARDS View Post
You talk as if role queue will magically fix everything, and its not going to. In fact, you're just going to create a whole new range of problems that will be just as bad. But since you said you'll have a huge post about this sometime I'll wait until then to start debating you on everything.
No, I don't think a role preference queue will fix everything. In fact I've pretty clearly said as much. There are several problems in the game right now:

1) champion selection drama related to positions
2) trolls and toxic players/attitudes
3) meta expectations
4) MMR/ELO matchmaking expectations

Each of these things is cause by different things, each of them have different solutions. The only thing a role preference queue will fix is the first. Granted, a lot of the trolls and toxic attitudes are caused by position selection and those would be cut down, but trolls and bad attitudes isn't the same.

To cut down on real trolls and bad attitudes you need a non free-to-play model. I'm personally for pay to play just because then getting banned is an actual punishment, but I don't feel really strongly either way. I've very rarely in WoW or LoL encountered a truly toxic player, 95% of what I've seen in LoL came from someone being "forced" to play somewhere they don't want.

As for the "meta" and expectations, there is no fix. Right now if Riot posted and said: pick order is the rule and going against it is now bannable. How does that fix it? It doesn't, if I lock Soraka solo top I'm either a troll or clueless, how you determine where you play has literally nothing to do with the viability. That's why most arguments against a queue fail utterly: if I queue for it, call it or get first pick my choice is STILL my choice and all you're changing is the fight over it. A role queue means no one gets "forced" to play what they don't want. I can't be any more clear, it's a fact.

I will gladly debate HOW to implement a preference system, there are a lot of options and opinions. I am tired of people with no good argument at all saying its a bad idea because of unrelated issues.