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I've never been warned or banned...

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2pudge1cup

Senior Member

02-26-2013

I have a green ribbon that is sometimes blue depending on recent honors I get.

I got the baron icon in the first wave.

I'm a very friendly, positive person in game.

But I don't feel like the tribunal has helped this game out at all. I think it's made player behavior worse. Can I say that without getting downvote spammed?

I think instead of solving conflicts in game people just default to the mute+report avenue. Call someone out on overextending? Report. Don't like a pick a player makes? Report. Don't like a ban a captain makes? Report. Someone afks? Report. Connection issues? Report. Lose the game? Someone is getting reported.

I understand people out there don't have the patience that I do or are a different age group where they haven't seen enough life to realize that it's just a game. When I do tribunals I'm a pretty lenient judge overall because I can sympathize with accusers at times who are in tryhard mode when allies just don't care and aren't giving it their all. Most cases I'd pardon get punished and it felt like a complete waste.

Fast forward to now. I think it's done a decent job in weeding out the true trolls. But now we have people who assume others are trolling and troll in response to being trolled. Playerbase has no fun/imagination in champ selects. They play every game like it's some grand final and yell at supports who take 1-2 cs when the ADC themselves is literally incapable of farming all of it. There's just such a strict adherence to the meta that it's almost like a religion. The reporting thing just promotes the mob mentality.

The long ass thread yesterday about pick/call and riot needing a stance was disheartening. Again it showed the report happy meta-worshipping nature of the playerbase. I agree that in an ideal world communication > all. But we don't live in an ideal world. A lot of the playerbase are children for lack of a better word. Sometimes younger players don't understand life lessons about how to communicate with people. They get the insta-gratification of being jerks in champ select and it gets them their little role. Nicer players get frustrated with always being support or jungle because they compromise, and then they are forced into that cycle.

This really wouldn't be an issue if players just discussed/made picks and rolled with it without a problem. If you didn't have a strong jungler in your queue then run a duo top. Or if you didn't have a strong support player run a duo bruiser bottom. The thing is that just doesn't/cannot happen because there is no official stickied stance in writing from riot. You can tell us all you want in some bottom threads on GD, but there needs to be harder rules because pregame lobbies themselves are the least fun part of playing the game but the most integral part.

We want rules. We cannot police ourselves without turning good, friendly players sour. Please, just something. And ideally something that doesn't involve a role queue because that would be so un-MOBA-like that you'd drive away a lot of players who don't like the same matchups over and over again.


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Aithòs

Senior Member

02-26-2013

I agree with most of what you're saying, I'm also a mature and patient gamer but I occasionally get frustrated too. The problem is that you won't get an official stance on pick vs call for a simple reason: both are complete fail and are basically random. It's an issue like abortion, no one will ever be happy regardless what you decide.

Here is the thing about a role queue: it doesn't enforce a meta. That's right, I said it: it doesn't enforce a meta. Before I talk about why let me say one other thing, you say you don't want to play the same game over and over? What game are you playing? It's already the same game over and over, if you want to do something non-traditional: lol troll, reported.

Anyway, let's talk about the meta. There are more than one meta, meta just means the high level strategy for mix maxing a game. The two easiest ones to talk about are champion/item meta and map meta. The map meta is what people want with a role queue. There are 4 sources of exp/gold per team for five players, that means 3 solo 1 duo is the best split of those resources for a late game team composition. It has nothing to do with who goes where or what champions are played, that's the champion/item meta.

A role queue would use commonly accepted terms to prioritize team members based on where they want to play, that eliminates a lot of the anger and arguments and would actually make it much easier to discuss a non-traditional strategy or champion pick. The people who say this would enforce the meta and make the game boring are completely wrong, in my opinion it would actully do the opposite.

You want to run a kill lane bottom and queued as support? Discuss it with your team, you're just as likely as today to be able to do it, just be willing to run a traditional support if the team doesn't like the idea. You have less chance to be called a troll and reported if you're assigned the support role and you discuss it rationally. Good luck doing that today...

Also, the time factor isn't really a big deal. You set it up so you queue for a minimum of three roles ranked in order of priority and it uses that to speed up the queue. I'd argue your avg queue time might go up a min or two, no more.


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2pudge1cup

Senior Member

02-26-2013

I didn't want this to turn into another role queue thread. My problem is the broader point of riot refusing to set out hard rules to people who literally need the hard rules or they turn to anarchy.

My opinion on the matter in another thread, just for full disclosure purposes more than anything:

Quote:
Please, never ever a role queue. The fun of MOBA's for a lot of players is the fact that there is no set hardcoded thing so games can vary each time you play. Different lane setups. Different item builds. Different skill builds. etc. When that gets streamlined all of a sudden only one real map becomes a detriment to play. I could play the same map over and over again because I relish different matchups and different playstyles game to game. Role queue eliminates a lot of that.


and

Quote:
think it's a huge disconnect between different playerbases. Let's face it, a lot of people found league from being run off from other game genres.

A lot of people are ex-wow players so they like the idea of grinding and getting ideal runes/masteries everything. They like having everything in it's own place because that is the best way to play in disorganized games. The tend to be pro-role queue.

Then there's a group that came from dota or sc or other RTS type games. RTS games are simple for them with a lot of depth because you might play similar matchups but you should in theory have different games each time as different circumstances arise. They are more willing to play a bit haphazardly because the variety is fun for them. They tend to be anti-role queue.

Now I understand this is a sweeping generalization so take it with a grain of salt. That's where I see each camp and I can't really argue against either perspective except for the fact that I'm part of the latter group, and I firmly believe that playstyle is the best. Unfortunately that's an opinion, not an argument. It's tough to sway one side's viewpoint when they are so heavily entrenched in it.

I still don't want a role queue under any circumstances. Such a thing would probably drive me from the game.


Now, anyway, that's out there, I don't want to discuss role queue further and would rather them discuss a stance. Champ select etiquette is only an issue because riot has dragged their heals on it for a while. If they came out and just laid out reasonable rules in bullet point format with a real "code" and not the ambiguous summoner's code you'd have guidelines to fostering communication aside from the squeeky wheel getting the most grease that we have now. I don't think this has to be a touchy issue like abortion. It really doesn't. There just needs to be guidelines and standards that aren't ambiguous and are posted in announcements for the world to see.


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jerrrry

Senior Member

02-26-2013

I try to be very friendly in my games. I don't call a role as soon as I enter a game. I don't feel at all like I get forced into jungling or supporting most of the time. I'm silver, and every game I enter, say hi, and say that I'm best at top or adc but willing to discuss. Often this causes other players to say something similar and we discuss who is where. Sometimes people are jerks, but I'm certainly not a rioter who gets recognized, and in my experience MOST of the time when I act civil early on in champ select, others follow my lead. If you look at my limited ranked history this season, I have played mostly (but not exclusively) top and ad champs and I've never insisted on any role by calling it out immediately. I just treat other people like people.


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Aithòs

Senior Member

02-26-2013

You didn't even read what I said about the meta. Your opinion is wrong and I've already stated why, you're talking about the champion/item meta which isn't affected in the slightest bit by a role queue. You're also talking about a queue like wow where I'm talking about a preference queue.

I've addressed all that in my post and you didn't even respond or quote it. You want to have a rational discussion? Start by addressing what other people say instead of regurgitating your own opinion.

You won't get a stance rulin from Riot because both sides of the arument are bad, bu I already said that too. The only solution to the problem is to remove the problem, not side with one group or the other. You don't want another role queue thread? Then don't post about the issue that prompts the need for one, this game NEEDS one.

Go back and quote my first post and go through it point by point and respond, or just don't post because I made some very good points you're ignoring.


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Sikkes

Senior Member

02-26-2013

The game has definitely improved compared to 6-8 months ago. The thing is that the Tribunal is too lax. When I was doing cases people that are obviously violating rules often got a majority pardon. So I gave up. Eventually that one in 10 majority pardon adds up and my faith is lost.


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YUNOWARDS

Senior Member

02-26-2013

Quote:
Aithòs:
You won't get a stance rulin from Riot because both sides of the arument are bad, bu I already said that too. The only solution to the problem is to remove the problem, not side with one group or the other. You don't want another role queue thread? Then don't post about the issue that prompts the need for one, this game NEEDS one.

What it needs is a more mature player base. Role queue is and always will be a terrible idea for this game. If anything we need a easier way to communicate what roles a player is good at so we can eliminate all this calling bs and make better informed decisions on what player should go where. We also need more time to talk in chat before bans start coming up because champ select usually starts within 60 seconds of the lobby start.


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DANAMORZ

Senior Member

02-26-2013

"Anyone who dislikes the Tribunal is a troll."
Every White Knight Ever


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2pudge1cup

Senior Member

02-26-2013

Quote:
Aithòs:
You didn't even read what I said about the meta. Your opinion is wrong and I've already stated why, you're talking about the champion/item meta which isn't affected in the slightest bit by a role queue. You're also talking about a queue like wow where I'm talking about a preference queue.

I've addressed all that in my post and you didn't even respond or quote it. You want to have a rational discussion? Start by addressing what other people say instead of regurgitating your own opinion.

You won't get a stance rulin from Riot because both sides of the arument are bad, bu I already said that too. The only solution to the problem is to remove the problem, not side with one group or the other. You don't want another role queue thread? Then don't post about the issue that prompts the need for one, this game NEEDS one.

Go back and quote my first post and go through it point by point and respond, or just don't post because I made some very good points you're ignoring.


because i didnt want this to turn into a role queue thing but whatever here i go:

Quote:
agree with most of what you're saying, I'm also a mature and patient gamer but I occasionally get frustrated too. The problem is that you won't get an official stance on pick vs call for a simple reason: both are complete fail and are basically random. It's an issue like abortion, no one will ever be happy regardless what you decide.


I really don't see how both sides fail. One is a pick order already coded into the game which can be proven and the other is whoever ctrl v's their thing first. I'll agree that not everyone will be happy with a decision, but at some point you have to make one.

Quote:
Here is the thing about a role queue: it doesn't enforce a meta. That's right, I said it: it doesn't enforce a meta. Before I talk about why let me say one other thing, you say you don't want to play the same game over and over? What game are you playing? It's already the same game over and over, if you want to do something non-traditional: lol troll, reported.


But it would move it further in the direction of rejecting untraditional. You can still at least jungle karthus or adc kennen or mid lulu/tristana without everyone throwing a fit. And no, I don't play the same game over and over again, yet anyway. I've seen enough mid rivens, mid singeds, etc. that I'm pretty happy with how things are atm.

Quote:
Anyway, let's talk about the meta. There are more than one meta, meta just means the high level strategy for mix maxing a game. The two easiest ones to talk about are champion/item meta and map meta. The map meta is what people want with a role queue. There are 4 sources of exp/gold per team for five players, that means 3 solo 1 duo is the best split of those resources for a late game team composition. It has nothing to do with who goes where or what champions are played, that's the champion/item meta.


So then why can't the duo split farm in this meta without being reported? And what if it was more efficient to cede one of those gold sources in favor of contesting an enemy's gold source? People win games doing that all the time because it's a different style of playing.

Quote:
A role queue would use commonly accepted terms to prioritize team members based on where they want to play, that eliminates a lot of the anger and arguments and would actually make it much easier to discuss a non-traditional strategy or champion pick. The people who say this would enforce the meta and make the game boring are completely wrong, in my opinion it would actully do the opposite.


Not really, if someone queues for ADC they'd be assuming that the other player is a support who takes no farm. If they come into champ select and say let's go a kill lane or let's split farm, gaskets would be blown. And then you'd never see a comp that favors pressuring the other team's gold source because the slots were already streamlined for them. It's a lazy way out.

Quote:
You want to run a kill lane bottom and queued as support? Discuss it with your team, you're just as likely as today to be able to do it, just be willing to run a traditional support if the team doesn't like the idea. You have less chance to be called a troll and reported if you're assigned the support role and you discuss it rationally. Good luck doing that today...


See above. Someone who clicks the ADC thing is not going to all of a sudden switch to a second bruiser for bottom lane. Someone who queues support is not going to be able to do a roaming support with the jungler. At least today if you talk to teammates and identify strengths/weaknesses with them you can accomplish that. If you tried that with a role queue it won't happen because you'd be met with "WHY DID YOU QUEUE AS SUPPORT NOOB?"

Quote:
Also, the time factor isn't really a big deal. You set it up so you queue for a minimum of three roles ranked in order of priority and it uses that to speed up the queue. I'd argue your avg queue time might go up a min or two, no more.


But then you'd be in a situation where at the highest/lowest elo queue times would go up drastically because their pool of players is already small enough that forced specializing is going to make things worse.


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2pudge1cup

Senior Member

02-26-2013

Anyway, role queue isn't the issue here. A stance from them is the issue. Real guidelines are the issue. Some role queue really is the lazy way out and up until recently that was how the majority of players felt (im guessing wow pissed off its final group to come here).