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[Rework] Sivir the Blade Mistress

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The5lacker

Senior Member

02-25-2013

Quote:
3mptylord:
I was comparing its cast-style... as you well know.

Yes, Lulu is a support, but Glitterlance is not a "support ability". The official classification for "support" is anything that shields/heals an ally or scouts (although scouting is being phased out as a support mechanic). Glitterlance is an offensive spell on a support, not a support spell.

That is not the definition of a support ability. A support ability is any ability that allows an ally to do better, SUPPORTING THEM. Any sort of buff or debuff can be classified as a support ability, and you know full well that healing is not the singular attribute of supports. Is Nautilus not a support because he has no healing abilities? Is Sion automatically a support because his ult heals nearby allies?

Allow me to refer to you the definition of a support:

"Support: Champions whose skills are meant to directly aid the rest of the team. They can either babysit a champion to make laning easier for them by providing healing, buffing allies, applying debuffs to the enemy team, or a combination of the above. The most common ability for a support champion is providing an ally with a shield of some kind. One of the main goals of a support is to let their lane partner farm minions for gold, as supports can buy key gold+ items to get gold for themselves, as well as controlling the map with wards, warding all key areas of the map. These champions usually rely on their skills more than their auto-attack."

Now, what does your champion do? Applies AD buffs, Grants allies on-hit effects and launches skillshots from then, has a massive AoE buff as an ult, and doesn't need gold to have fair stats and fill her role. This Sivir is a support.


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3mptylord

Senior Member

02-25-2013

I admit that I meant to say Two-Shiv Poison, and not Backstab. However, I did intend to say Parrrley and I was correct to do so. I said they apply slows - which is true (incidentally, it is also true for Backstab). The source of Parrrley's slow is Grog Soaked Blade, but I never said otherwise.

It is still completely beside the point.


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NobSaiboot

Senior Member

02-25-2013

Sivir doesn't need a rework...She has the highest DPS in the game...

Maybe a better way of saying it, she doesn't need This rework.


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The5lacker

Senior Member

02-25-2013

Quote:
3mptylord:
I am done arguing about being a support means.

And by the way, Nautilus isn't a support. As a matter of fact, neither is Leona, Blitzcrank and Zyra. "Enabler" is not the same as "support".



As for this champions kit - she has standard ADC stats, which means she is item dependant. The fact she fires multiple Qs does not change they fact she scale with her AD. And her attack damage aura is percentile - meaning, again, it scales with AD. She also lacks any enabling, healing or shielding abilities - meaning she has no utility that scales into lategame. She is -- by the "metas" definition -- not a support.

Other than the fact that she doesn't need items, and that applying her buffs to anyone who ISN'T an AD carry would be significantly less effective, meaning by "the meta's definition," she would best serve her team by going bot-lane and SUPPORTING the AD carry, rather than being one herself. Hers support is not going to benefit from an AD steroid. Her AD carry would benefit from an AD steroid, through.

What we have here is THE FIRST truly AD support. And that's a glorious, glorious thing that you are trying to deny. We have a support champ who retains their effectiveness late game by having a fair damage output of their own, and by granting allies significant buffs. We have a support who can actually use Zeke's Herald. We have a support who shreds the enemy's armor to let the Carry get the killing blow, who rallies allies around her and charges headlong into the arms of the enemy.

And you're sitting here, whining like a child that every support has to have heals. You disgust me. You're sitting on gold and refusing to actually do anything with it.


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3mptylord

Senior Member

02-25-2013

Quote:
Cryoshell17:
Sivir doesn't need a rework...She has the highest DPS in the game...

Maybe a better way of saying it, she doesn't need This rework.


To say she doesn't need this rework is fair enough, but she has FAR from the highest DPS.


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NobSaiboot

Senior Member

02-25-2013

Quote:
3mptylord:
To say she doesn't need this rework is fair enough, but she has FAR from the highest DPS.



When played right she shreds as fast as Kog and Vayne.


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3mptylord

Senior Member

02-25-2013

First, I never said she couldn't support - merely, that I didn't design her to be one. I designed her to benefit from her team (like an allied-targeted Brand's Blaze). I made it buff her team because that is a good mechanic - requiring your team to stay in the fray should be rewarded. I gave Rally a percentile scaling so that Sivir would have to build AD for her "support" to remain relevant because I didn't want her to be played like Taric (EDIT: And look at that - Taric's just received a rework for the same reason).

Feel free to play her bottom lane with another carry - but she will not work using the current support "rules".


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ElementSteel

Senior Member

02-25-2013

Quote:
3mptylord:
And I say "becomes a support" loosely - she empowers her allies, her support is far from "utility" (by the definition the meta has for a support - she does not enable/disable, heal/shield, scout...). The only other supports with damage modifiers are Nami and Lulu, although they have lots of CC and other goodies in their kit.

First off, how nice of you to forget poor Janna and her shield, Sona's Hymm of Valor, as well as Taric's Shatter and Radiance. :|

Second, I'd like to take this moment and say "**** the meta." A support is there to help out the team. From what I see about this 'remake', Sivir would just be a walking Rally. "Hey, bruisers! Get in here with your tankiness and take my AD buff!" She could also very easily empower another ADC like say Draven, Ezreal, or Graves. "But she's taking CS for herself!" Ok, doesn't say she always needs it. 3 seconds is a decent time to allow the actual carry get CS in, especially once they get damage from say, oh I don't know...SIVIR. Just make her tanky-dps and she'll be as effective as support Gangplank.


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3mptylord

Senior Member

02-25-2013

If we're including champions that grant AD, then yes, Taric, Sona, Gangplank and Janna too (and probably others). But I was referring to damage modifiers specifically (i.e. Lacerate, Pix and ... whatever Nami's is called, Tidecaller's Blessing?).

"Hey, bruisers! Get in there with your tankiness and take my AD buff!" is exactly what I was aiming for - but in designed the kit to be more of a captain/commander. The point is they only get damage from Sivir if she has damage to give - and I think there's only one AD-support item. Sivir and her team benefit from Sivir building as a carry. Double ADC kill lanes would work, I don't deny it.


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ElementSteel

Senior Member

02-25-2013

Quote:
3mptylord:
If we're including champions that grant AD, then yes, Taric, Sona, Gangplank and Janna too (and probably others). But I was referring to damage modifiers specifically (i.e. Lacerate, Pix and ... whatever Nami's is called, Tidecaller's Blessing?).

"Hey, bruisers! Get in there with your tankiness and take my AD buff!" is exactly what I was aiming for - but in designed the kit to be more of a captain/commander. The point is they only get damage from Sivir if she has damage to give - and I think there's only one AD-support item. Sivir and her team benefit from Sivir building as a carry. Double ADC kill lanes would work, I don't deny it.

Fair enough about Damage Modifiers.

There's Executioner's Calling, Frozen Mallet, and Zeke's Herald. I'd say those could be supportive, given the right circumstances. And look, they all give AD. It just seems like a safer play to keep this beacon of buffs alive while it occasionally takes a kill to renew the buff.


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