What Burden of Knowledge actually is.

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Knote

Senior Member

10-30-2010

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Originally Posted by Onlyashadow View Post
guildwars is LOADED with what I believe they would call "anti-fun" and "burden of knowledge" misplacements however I've never heard or seen any complaints.
This is a casual game, which is the only reason I believe they're using these "rules". Bigger playerbase = more money.

Guild Wars wasn't a casual game. However it definately was INCREDIBLE.


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WWRaptorJesusDo

Senior Member

10-30-2010

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Originally Posted by Uccisore View Post
BURDEN OF KNOWLEDGE DOES NOT MEAN A MOVE IS TOO 'HARD TO UNDERSTAND'.

A DESIGN MECHANIC HAS A BAD 'BURDEN OF KNOWLEDGE' WHEN IT ONLY ADDS CONTENT BY VIRTUE OF THE VICTIM INTERACTING WITH IT PROPERLY, NOT THE USER.

Ok? Rupture isn't bad design because Zileas thinks it's too hard for you to understand. Rupture is bad design because the only thing that makes it different from a normal DoT, is the way the victim chooses to react. Every time a victim runs around with Rupture on them because they don't know/don't care that stopping would mitigate the damage, that's a situation in which the extra complexity you put into Rupture vs. a standard DoT is wasted.

If you don't want your design time/effort to be wasted, then you tend to have the complexity of a move be based on how the user uses it, not how the victim responds to it.

An example of Burden of Knowledge would be Veigar's area stun. Whether or not it stuns depends (usually) on how the victim reacts to being surrounded with it. This anti-pattern is mitigated to a degree by obvious visuals.

The anti-patterns don't mean what you think they do, and Riot uses anti-patterns thoughtfuly to achieve their design goals.


This thread exists because in the current, running 'anti-pattern' thread, explanations of what the anti-patterns actually are are completely ignored because they don't fit the agenda of thought-free Riot bashing.


Here's a good explanation of anti-fun from another poster further down the page.
i get what you're saying man, but i dont see how rupture is a bad spell. it rocked, and if you arent dumb you know how to counter it. i guess the idea is that you would have to either play B.S or learn about him in order to understand his moves, fair enough, but could the same not also be said about all the LoL champs? you dont know what morgana's ult is gonna do the first time you see it. and you may not know how to counter it untill you play against or as her several time. same thing with rupture. you get the lil dot marker on the bottom of your screen and if you arent ******ed and go runnin around you'll be fine.

STOP TRYING TO PIT LoL AND DotA FANS AGAINST EACH OTHER. THEY ARE BOTH GOOD GAMES, DotA JUST HAS MORE POLISH BECAUSE ITS BEEN AROUND LONGER. CHILL PEOPLE


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Knote

Senior Member

10-30-2010

As far as Anti-Fun goes. I think that's just a load of horsesh*t. Being zoned or harassed like crazy early game (which most of the newer champs are GREAT AT) is INCREDIBLY Un-Fun but that looks like it's here to stay.

Competively I'm curious to see how LoL goes considering the design "casual" rules it follows. Personally WCG games were so boring to watch.


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Uccisore

Senior Member

10-30-2010

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Originally Posted by Knote View Post
Even though I personally don't think a rupture effect would work well in this game (mainly because it requires you to STOP, which isn't something, you EVER do in this game), it would still work as long as they gave it an obvious visual cue like Event Horizon or Soul Shackles right?
Yeah, as Zileas himself said in the very thread where he criticized the ability. The thing to point out is that an obvious visual cue doesn't make the 'burden of knowledge' anti-pattern go away, it's just a way to mitigate the bad effects. That's where people are getting confused.

Quote:
Otherwise if THAT'S the reason we can't have rupture (or possibly maledict), then Event Horizon and Soul Shackles shouldn't exist either.
As Zileas said, and as I said in my opening post, Riot knowingly designs abilities that use anti-patterns. The point of them isn't to say "Any ability that exhibits one of these must never be in the game". The point is that they are bad things, so you need to get something really good in return if you use one.

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Also isn't Tryndamere's shout a lose/lose situation which they said is bad?
Not sure what you're talking about there- you'd have to link me. I mean, it's an opponent using an ability on you, it should be a bad thing regardless.

Quote:
You stop to face Tryndamere, he catches up and kills you.

You turn and run, you get slowed and Tryndamere catches up and kills you.
Exactly! Think of it this way- what you just said, you could ALSO say about Nasus' slow. If you stop he catches you, if you run he catches you. The problem with Trynd's slow (as I understand it, I don't play him) is that it's more complicated than Nasus' slow, but that extra layer of complication almost never affects the game because of how the victim acts in both cases. BUrden of Knowledge.

What the complexity of Trynd's slow does do is keep him from using it as an escape. That fits with his whole "courageous invincible warrior" theme, and gives him a slow while keeping him committed to fights he commits to. I guessing that's what Riot wanted, and was willing to use the anti-pattern to get.


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Knote

Senior Member

10-30-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uccisore View Post
Exactly! Think of it this way- what you just said, you could ALSO say about Nasus' slow. If you stop he catches you, if you run he catches you. The problem with Trynd's slow (as I understand it, I don't play him) is that it's more complicated than Nasus' slow, but that extra layer of complication almost never affects the game because of how the victim acts in both cases. Burden of Knowledge.
That's not really a good comparison. Since you have no reason to stop.


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Uccisore

Senior Member

10-30-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by WWRaptorJesusDo View Post
i get what you're saying man, but i dont see how rupture is a bad spell. it rocked, and if you arent dumb you know how to counter it.
I don't play DOTA, maybe Rupture is a great spell. If so, it's a great spell that uses an anti-pattern. Just like Veigar's stun. My point wasn't to say that Veigar is bad design and shouldn't be in the game.

Quote:
i guess the idea is that you would have to either play B.S or learn about him in order to understand his moves, fair enough, but could the same not also be said about all the LoL champs?
Yes, but that's not always a design issue. Let me give you a really simple example. Imagine you're playing a video game in which left click is to 'activate' and right click is to 'cancel'. Imagine further that in one particular part of the game (a sub menu or when using a certain piece of in-game equipment), this is backwards- left click to cancel, right click to activate. You can imagine the confusion this would cause a noob. I bet you've actually played games that do this for no apparent reason.

Now, it's true that you can learn this. It's true that after some hours playing the game,the button switch would become second nature. But the fact that you can learn what's going on (by looking in the instructions, say), doesn't take away the fact that pointlessly switching the controls around is bad design. In order to do something like that, there would have to be a good reason to do so.

Again, don't lose sight of what BUrden of Knowledge is- it's not 'you have to learn the moves'. It's added complexity that only affects the game if the victim acts correctly.


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Uccisore

Senior Member

10-30-2010

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Originally Posted by Knote View Post
That's not really a good comparison. Since you have no reason to stop.
That's exactly what makes it a good comparison- 90% of the time when Trynd slows you, you have no reason to stop either.


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Knote

Senior Member

10-30-2010

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Originally Posted by Uccisore View Post
That's exactly what makes it a good comparison- 90% of the time when Trynd slows you, you have no reason to stop either.
You do have a reason to stop. To avoid the slow all together and sometimes have a better chance at surviving (like rupture).

A better "inbetween" for rupture and shout could be Warhammer Gork Sez Stop ability. A 1 minute dot that does alot of true dmg every half second while you're moving (or 4 ticks of dmg over 2 seconds) which refreshes itself if you're moving. So you have to stop for 1-2 seconds to "lose" the dot. Could be a better way of doing Rupture in LoL (not that I'm pushing for it).


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Zeryth

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Senior Member

10-30-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knote View Post
You do have a reason to stop. To avoid the slow all together and sometimes have a better chance at surviving (like rupture).

A nice example could be Warhammer Gork Sez Stop ability. A 1 minute dot that does alot of true dmg every half second while you're moving (or 4 ticks of dmg over 2 seconds) which refreshes itself if you're moving. So you have to stop for 1-2 seconds to "lose" the dot. Could be a better way of doing Rupture in LoL (not that I'm pushing for it).
do you guys play Trynd? Regardless if you run or stop, the slow won't happen if you're facing him. >.<


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Knote

Senior Member

10-30-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeryth View Post
do you guys play Trynd? Regardless if you run or stop, the slow won't happen if you're facing him. >.<
That's what I meant by "stopping".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knote View Post

You stop to face Tryndamere, he catches up and kills you.

You turn and run, you get slowed and Tryndamere catches up and kills you.