Health meta..

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ROKAF JE

Senior Member

02-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by LoudFootSteps View Post
I only seem to have a problem with Randuin's because that attack speed slow is overpowered as hell. Same with Frozen Heart.
I rarely see them built (Randuins more than Frozen Heart, though) unfortunately. Best items in the game S2, heavily underrated in S3.
That's what ArPen is for, though.


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Best Novi NA

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Senior Member

02-24-2013

You're tired of health stacking? I'm tired of hearing about how health stacking is OP and stupid. If health stacking wasn't a problem, you find something else to complain about.


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FreshFuhrer

Senior Member

02-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ROKAF JE View Post

http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/28752152#history
16-2-8 Kog with BotRK
What were you saying?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ROKAF JE
Normal blind pick shouldn't influence health being OP either, because you can't see what you need to play as a counter.
This was a normal blind pick. I didn't pick him to counter Garen (but there did happen to be one on the other team.)


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Lemur Bear

Junior Member

02-24-2013

I'm not complaining about it. Idc as long is there is a way to effectively counter it, I'm simply asking for advice on how to. Every stat can be counter effectively, and if there is a stat that can't be countered than the game becomes unbalanced. I love top lane, but I don't want to feel like I need to play a protect the kogmaw/vayne comp every single game.


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ROKAF JE

Senior Member

02-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur Bear View Post
I'm not complaining about it. Idc as long is there is a way to effectively counter it, I'm simply asking for advice on how to. Every stat can be counter effectively, and if there is a stat that can't be countered than the game becomes unbalanced. I love top lane, but I don't want to feel like I need to play a protect the kogmaw/vayne comp every single game.
BotRK is an excellent item for top laners right now, and it's getting buffed again in the coming patch. It allows you to kill health tanks quickly, and squishies even faster


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Boagster

Senior Member

02-24-2013

I'm going to start by properly answering something the OP mentioned that hasn't really been addressed:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur Bear View Post
<snip> I payed attention to the patch updates and I don't understand how health became the new meta.<snip>
The health meta came about not because of changes to health, but because of the gold-cost changes to resistances. Armor and Magic Resistance were made more expensive per point, making it more difficult to really stack resistances. Because of this, it has become much more gold efficient to just stack health and only buy resistances when one type becomes a particular threat over the other during a game. The small amounts you pick up here and there from other items are often all you need. This has led to Armor and Magic Resistance runes being more valuable than before, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur Bear View Post
<snip> Any tips?
There are plenty of champion abilities to counter the current focus on health:
  • Amumu's Despair
  • Brand's Blaze²
  • Dr. Mundo's Infected Cleaver
  • Evelynn's Agony's Embrace¹
  • Elise's Neurotoxin, Venemous Bite
  • Fizz's Seastone Trident
  • Garen's Demacian Justice¹
  • Jarvan IV's Martial Cadence²
  • Jayce's Thundering Blow
  • Kha'zix's Evolved Enlarged Claws
  • Kog'maw's Bio-Arcane Barrage
  • Lee Sin's Resonating Strike
  • Malzahar's Null Zone
  • Mordekaiser's Children of the Grave¹
  • Nasus' Fury of the Sands¹
  • Poppy's Devastating Blow
  • Vayne's Silver Bolts³
  • Varus' Blighted Quiver
  • Vi's Denting Blows³
  • Volibear's Frenzy*
  • Warwick's Hungering Strike
  • Xin Zhao's Crescent Sweep¹

Source. Bold = Scales using target's maximum health. Italics = Scales using target's missing health. Unstylized = Scales using target's current health. ¹ = Champion's Ultimate ability. ² = Champion's Passive ability. ³ = Passive gained from ranking one of the champions regular abilities. * = Volibear's Frenzy not only scales with the enemies maximum health, but also scales with his own maximum health, allowing him to take advantage of health stacking himself.

Others have mentioned Blade of the Ruined King and Liandry's Torment. I have little experience with BotRK, but I'd like to add Rumble and Kayle as two champions that can make great use of Liandry's. Rylai's Crystal Scepter is necessary for Rumble to get serious damage out of Liandry's, except in rare circumstances (having an Ashe on your team, for example). Kayle can get away without buying Rylai's, due to the slow on her Reckoning, but it's still advisable.


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Flagrock

Senior Member

02-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur Bear View Post
I'm not complaining about it. Idc as long is there is a way to effectively counter it, I'm simply asking for advice on how to. Every stat can be counter effectively, and if there is a stat that can't be countered than the game becomes unbalanced. I love top lane, but I don't want to feel like I need to play a protect the kogmaw/vayne comp every single game.
If it could be effectively countered then it wouldn't be the meta. THAT'S THE POINT OF THE META. In S2 resistance stacking COULDN'T BE COUNTERED EFFECTIVELY THAT'S WHY EVERYONE DID IT. The meta is in place because that's the most effective way of play. You don't have something that can easily be countered be the most effective thing. In Season 2 Malph and other high resistance tanks were considered extremely strong because you couldn't counter resistances effectively because 40% armor pen on 300 armor is only making him have 180 armor (a normal bruiser now). That's not great pen if you think in the grand picture when that's probably 60-70% reduction. The meta is the way it is because you can't "counter" it. That's why support/adc go bot because they don't get countered there in the game. There is a reason you don't see AD carries facing bruisers top... because it's not good for the carry. The meta is set by the strongest most efficient way to play this game. Getting mad at the meta is getting mad at Riot for making the game the way it is.


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ROKAF JE

Senior Member

02-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boagster View Post
I'm going to start by properly answering something the OP mentioned that hasn't really been addressed:

The health meta came about not because of changes to health, but because of the gold-cost changes to resistances. Armor and Magic Resistance were made more expensive per point, making it more difficult to really stack resistances. Because of this, it has become much more gold efficient to just stack health and only buy resistances when one type becomes a particular threat over the other during a game. The small amounts you pick up here and there from other items are often all you need. This has led to Armor and Magic Resistance runes being more valuable than before, though.

There are plenty of champion abilities to counter the current focus on health:
  • Amumu's Despair
  • Brand's Blaze²
  • Dr. Mundo's Infected Cleaver
  • Evelynn's Agony's Embrace¹
  • Fizz's Seastone Trident
  • Garen's Demacian Justice¹
  • Jarvan IV's Martial Cadence²
  • Jayce's Thundering Blow
  • Kha'zix's Evolved Enlarged Claws
  • Kog'maw's Bio-Arcane Barrage
  • Lee Sin's Resonating Strike
  • Malzahar's Null Zone
  • Mordekaiser's Children of the Grave¹
  • Nasus' Fury of the Sands¹
  • Poppy's Devastating Blow
  • Vayne's Silver Bolts³
  • Varus' Blighted Quiver
  • Vi's Denting Blows³
  • Volibear's Frenzy*
  • Warwick's Hungering Strike
  • Xin Zhao's Crescent Sweep¹

Source. Bold = Scales using target's maximum health. Italics = Scales using target's missing health. Unstylized = Scales using target's current health. ¹ = Champion's Ultimate ability. ² = Champion's Passive ability. ³ = Passive gained from ranking one of the champions regular abilities. * = Volibear's Frenzy not only scales with the enemies maximum health, but also scales with his own maximum health, allowing him to take advantage of health stacking himself.

Others have mentioned Blade of the Ruined King and Liandry's Torment. I have little experience with BotRK, but I'd like to add Rumble and Kayle as two champions that can make great use of Liandry's. Rylai's Crystal Scepter is necessary for Rumble to get serious damage out of Liandry's, except in rare circumstances (having an Ashe on your team, for example). Kayle can get away without buying Rylai's, due to the slow on her Reckoning, but it's still advisable.
You forgot Elise.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Flagrock View Post
If it could be effectively countered then it wouldn't be the meta. THAT'S THE POINT OF THE META. In S2 resistance stacking COULDN'T BE COUNTERED EFFECTIVELY THAT'S WHY EVERYONE DID IT. The meta is in place because that's the most effective way of play. You don't have something that can easily be countered be the most effective thing. In Season 2 Malph and other high resistance tanks were considered extremely strong because you couldn't counter resistances effectively because 40% armor pen on 300 armor is only making him have 180 armor (a normal bruiser now). That's not great pen if you think in the grand picture when that's probably 60-70% reduction. The meta is the way it is because you can't "counter" it. That's why support/adc go bot because they don't get countered there in the game. There is a reason you don't see AD carries facing bruisers top... because it's not good for the carry. The meta is set by the strongest most efficient way to play this game. Getting mad at the meta is getting mad at Riot for making the game the way it is.
Professional players determined the meta, not Riot.
Health can be countered, it can also be purchased by everyone.

The same rule applied in S2, you probably shouldn't be stacking resists until you have 3k+ hp (Warmogs, Randuins, Aegis, Sunfire all very popular in S2), and after that, you shouldn't stack over 150-250.
Health isn't OP. You really can't go nothing but warmogs and frozen mallet and hope to survive. There needs to be armor and MR in there somewhere or you will just melt.

Does nobody remember the Warmogs/FoN monsters that used to walk all over Season 2?
A farmed Warmogs in Season 2 is better than the current one, and it was more efficient to purchase if you were going to farm it.
S2: 2.25g per point of health on a farmed mogs, plus you get the regen passive
S3: 2.65g per point of health, plus a similar passive, but the regen scales (soon to be nerfed by 33%, and with a BotRK buff coming, GG health tanks)

With the new passive, it becomes more efficient than the old warmogs after 3500hp
I don't know about post-nerf though.
Say 4k for an estimate.


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Boagster

Senior Member

02-24-2013

Flagrock, you are quite a bit off on your assessment of why certain champions go to certain lanes. You are correct in insinuating that bruisers face bruisers because most other champions have issues in 1v1 against bruisers, but it has nothing to do with lane. The reasons the "meta" is the way it is comes has nothing to do with your lane opponent and much more to do with the intricacies of the different roles and map design.

We pair the AD Carries and the Supports together because:

  • ADCs are less reliant than other champions on levels to do their role, meaning they are least affected by the Support leaching experience.
  • Typical Support champions are not very reliant on gold, usually being able to get by on global gold and a GP/10 item, without CS, meaning that they can give all the creeps to the ADC.
  • ADCs are more reliant on gaining an early gold lead than many other champions. The extra man in lane with them can help them get this early gold lead by making kills easier and safer to secure.
  • ADCs are typically very fragile and gank-prone early game, so giving them a lane partner helps protect them.

We send them bottom because:
  • Dragon is a very important early game objective. Having the duo lane close to dragon makes it easier to control.
  • There is more activity in the bottom portion of river than the top due to Dragon, making the support's warding more effective.
  • It is too easy to be pushed to tower in middle lane, meaning an exterior lane is better for an ADC, who hinge on the CS and are the least likely to be able to clear waves en masse.


We typically send AP Carries and Assassins to mid because:
  • They are mobile than most champions. Mid is the best lane to take advantage of this by giving them easy access to both the other lanes and jungle.
  • They often have the best wave-clearing abilities, meaning they are less affected by the shorter range between turrets than other champions.
  • Mid lane has the easiest access to blue, which is usually best used on AP Carries.

We send Bruisers top because:
  • Top lane is 'isolated' from the other lanes during lane phase because of the lack of Dragon, so having someone who is less likely to die from trading or a gank is important.


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Boagster

Senior Member

02-24-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ROKAF JE View Post
You forgot Elise.
She wasn't on that wiki page and, honestly, I know little about her. I'll correct it.


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