Several Nidalee tweaks for PBE to fix the silly balance change =P

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Grammatizator

Senior Member

02-23-2013

nidalee was fine before the mr scaling and cougar bonus nerf. No one complained about her before the tournament and thats the only reason people started crying op.


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RavageRose

Senior Member

02-23-2013

Hell no! Nid is one of my favs an she is a very versitile champ. i play her tanky AOE plash DMG hybrid


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Katsuni

Senior Member

02-23-2013

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Originally Posted by AK47WOLF View Post
So a 3-second flash in cat form is not enough utility for you to succeed with? You need to be unkillable too?

Oh and for the record. The range of Brand's E puts him in the kill zone of 95% of the champions in LoL, regardless of ranged or melee. Food for thought. Ar/MR nao plz.
A 3.5 second leap is not equivilent to flash, and note that if you're using pounce to get INTO melee range, that's 3.5 seconds where you will be facing the full wrath of the entire enemy team. That's more than long enough to burn a champion down when you extend that duration by applying CC effects. Even at 2.1 seconds with 40% CDR, it doesn't matter; if you leap into melee range, and are chain-cc'd until dead, you're kind of still dead =P

The armour/MR is actually less about survival, as it is a deterrent, oddly enough. Will someone with a thornmail be killable by an ADC? Yep. The issue is moreso that it'll take too long and be too costly to target them first, which is why it works in the role the item has. It won't prevent the ADC from killing you in most cases, it just makes somebody else look considerably more appetizing.

In the case of Brand, note that he will be standing towards the back of a teamfight. Yes, his range is such that, with the number of gap closers available these days, a melee champion can get into range with him if they really try. The problem there, though, is then that melee champion is surrounded by Brand's entire team, while their own team are farther back out of range. Note that brand will be shooting as well at their melees, who are up close to the front, but won't be in range of the ranged ADC and APC that are standing closer to the back. Sure, they might have the same range, but if both sides are at max range away from the melee combatants, then the ranged champions are simply not in range of each other, meaning they're only able to be targeted by about half of the enemy team on average.

So, here's the problem: Brand is getting hit by 1 melee champion, but can stun them, and that melee champion is automatically getting targeted by his tank, and probably the ranged ADC on his team as well, plus anything else that's available for CC. Brand is in a relatively safe position, and the melee champion is dead.

Let's say that the melee champion who jumped on Brand was Nidalee. Even with 45armour/MR, trust me, she's still dying long before Brand is, unless your team is completely and totally incompetent, in which case Master Yi or Tryndamere would be much more effective anyway since you're in pubstomp territory at that point.

The issue has some to do with her high mobility, but it's not the high mobility that's the entire fault; it's mostly the combination of having both a fairly strong defensive mechanism *AND* high mobility that's the issue.

One or the other is typically acceptable; both is a bit ridiculous, so to that I can attest that she is a little bit too hard to kill when she's trying to run away, and that should really be looked into.

I get the feeling from your comments, however, that you haven't really tried playing as Nidalee in a teamfight environment. I would advise trying her out against a competent team and attempting to use her kittyform in melee range, and see how well you fare. If you don't get CC'd at least twice after your first pounce and before your second, then you weren't facing a competent team, so you can pretty much discount that as being an issue of not facing a particularly dangerous team, in which case you may as well play someone more fitting as a pubstomp instead. If you do eat the two CC's immediately, I think the black and white death screen should account for the rest adequately.


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Still Eternity

Senior Member

02-23-2013

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Note that she doesn't really have a low cooldown flash; flash has an effective range of 400 while pounce has a range of about 375 which takes Nidalee's larger hit box into account. Go ahead and try playing nidalee with flash, and test to see if she can jump over the same areas she can flash over. She really can't, and the travel time makes a considerable difference.
25 Range, big honking difference. She can still jump over almost every wall in the game aside from the thickest of them; I've seen it happen. And she doesn't need to to flash over walls when in addition to her normal movespeed bonus while in cougar form, she has a 375 leap every 3.5 seconds, BASE. She can easily escape from any single player, even as many as three champions if they aren't packing serious CC. And while you're using three guys to take out ONE character, her team is pushing objectives.
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The other issue is that Nidalee isn't really that low risk; if she sticks in the back of a fight and chucks spears, she doesn't really risk much, but she doesn't get much either since it's so easy to dodge her spears at that point.
1,500 Range is an awful lot. It's incredibly low Risk, but the reward is absolutely mind blowing if you actually hit a spear. It only takes ONE spear from an AP Nidalee to chunk you for over 800 Damage, AFTER Resists. If you're a tank, your ability to initiate just got crushed. If you're a carry, you need to go home, otherwise you'll blow up. You Nidalee players all seem to forget it doesn't matter who you hit; if you hit anybody at all, you're team automatically has an advantage. And it's a lot harder to dodge them when you're grouped as 5 in front of your turret preventing a siege.

And even if you get in her range? She has very powerful burst skills in melee range, one that acts as an execute, and the other which doesn't even need a target, all of them fairly low cooldown. She's very high on the offensive burst.

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Any time anyone goes into melee range, however, you are subjecting yourself to the full force of the enemy team, as now the entirety of all their damage output, all their CC and all their AoE effects can hit you easily. Any champion that is in melee range absolutely needs some form of survival to be able to be effective in melee range, which is why you see champions such as Sion with a shield and life steal, or Master Yi being able to go untargetable, gain a huge armour/MR boost at will, and go immune to slows, or how Olaf can go immune to CC and has a good life steal boost.
A Champion like Nidalee with so much movement has to have it's risks somewhere. Master Yi's invulnerabilty is canceled with one Hard CC; Sion's Shield is only effective if he builds AP, and even then, Sion in general is not know for his usefulness aside from the gimmicky AP Build. Even then, all of those characters are designed to be in Melee; Nidalee has a ranged aspect. If she didn't have the insane movement abilities she has, I'd say give her the Armor Boost. But she does, so that acts as her defensive ability. She shouldn't be played as a front-line fighter anyway; she's far better at Split Pushing and harassing. No character should be able to do everything.

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Being in melee range is a dangerous thing, and exceptionally high risk. To claim otherwise, is kind of ridiculous =P
Solution; Don;t go in melee range until it's safe to do so.


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A Master Shaco

Senior Member

02-23-2013

Nidalee is overpowered, She needs nerfs, So she is getting them. She will be perfectly fine even with them.


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Katsuni

Senior Member

02-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Still Eternity View Post
A Champion like Nidalee with so much movement has to have it's risks somewhere.
Of course it does; if she's hit with a single CC, she simply melts under fire .Against a single character she's relatively alright, though it again depends on the enemy she faces. Her pounce is pretty potent of a mobility tool, of that there is no argument, though in practice it's not as godly powerful as people often believe.

The complete lack of any CC of any kind is her largest tradeoff, and where another champion like Morganna, Lux or Ryze would simply root a single chasing enemy and walk away, Nidalee has to outrun them.

To Nidalee's advantage, that mobility makes her a bit safer from multiple targets as long as she gets a big enough head start. To Nidalee's disadvantage, the lack of a CC leaves her significantly less powerful in a team fight as compensation.
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Master Yi's invulnerabilty is canceled with one Hard CC; Sion's Shield is only effective if he builds AP, and even then, Sion in general is not know for his usefulness aside from the gimmicky AP Build. Even then, all of those characters are designed to be in Melee
This is actually proving my point =P

Consider the current 30 armour and 43.5 MR. Is that enough to be discounted as well? One nuke in damage difference, probably less than Sion's shield. One hard CC removes Nidalee's mobility. Note specifically that this is meant for melee, which is my point as well; outside of melee, she should not gain the armour and MR. Notice how I've suggested we actually remove these things from her if she's not fighting in melee range.

Hence, when she is in melee range, and is actually fighting in melee range, then yes, she needs some method of survival; typical of the game, this is equivilent to about ~400 to ~800 damage mitigation on most champions who walk into melee.
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Nidalee has a ranged aspect. If she didn't have the insane movement abilities she has, I'd say give her the Armor Boost. But she does, so that acts as her defensive ability.
Exactly my point; at range, her defensive ability is her mobility; she doesn't need armour or MR boosts when she's at range because she has her mobility to cover for it. This is the whole point.

The problem that you're missing, is that if she's in melee range to use the other half of her kit, then she kind of used that pounce to get INTO melee range, and therefore it's not being used to get OUT of melee range. Even if she pounces away, it's a relatively short distance, and well within the range of being autoattacked still by a ranged champion, or being CC'd, or being dashed to by a melee champion again.

Consider that this means her first pounce brings her into melee. 3.5 seconds later, she gets a second pounce to try to escape melee; she gets rooted with a stun and is back in melee. 3.5 seconds later she pounces again, but this time Xin Zhao dashes to her, and knocks her into the air, another 3.5 seconds passes and she pounces again; this time Graves dashes forwards and finishes her off.

The problem is that she doesn't magically teleport across the entire map every 3.5 seconds (or even 2.1 with 40% CDR), but rather that she's not actually travelling a far enough distance that she can escape combat entirely.

Flash has the nice bonus that you can flash away even when you're at max range, while the stun's particle effect is still in the air. Nidalee needs to swap to kitty form and then pounce away, which is generally enough time for the effect to land while the global cooldown is still in effect. Additionally, you're discounting that she's not going to be pouncing away from max range if she's in melee range due to using her melee abilities.

If she had no melee abilities? Yeah, no problem, I'd say nerf her pounce pretty hardcore then. The fact of the matter is, however, that she has melee abilities. Actually, half of her abilities are melee, which means she either lacks an ultimate entirely and loses out on 3 spells, in which case she should lose catform entirely if she's not going to be allowed to use it, which I disagree with, or you have to take into account that she is supposed to, and will be, in melee range, and that her pounce simply doesn't travel far enough for her to exit melee range in any regular combat situation, except against a single target, and even then they're still going to probably nail her with a few more shots before she escapes.
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She shouldn't be played as a front-line fighter anyway; she's far better at Split Pushing and harassing. No character should be able to do everything.
And this is also within my point =P

She should be allowed to be versatile, as she has to be. She's a rather niche character as she has no CC of any kind, not even a soft CC. Virtually every champion in the game has a CC of some kind.

For an example, who doesn't have a CC?

Corki, Ezreal, Fiora, Katarina, Master Yi, Mordekaiser, Nidalee, and Sivir,

Yep, that's right, 8 champions total in the game, and of those, less than half are used in competitive play with any regularity, while most of the others are deemed to be some of the weakest in the game right now.

Everyone else has at least a knockback, or a slow, or some other form of CC in their kit.

That is one of the largest weaknesses of any champion in the game, flat out. That alone is one of the largest reasons why Nidalee isn't remarkably popular, no matter how supposedly overpowered she may be assumed to be (or may even actually be in the topmost tiers of play).

In the end, Nidalee simply doesn't work very well with most team compositions since she lacks for CC, half her abilities require her to be at range and the other half in melee, and many of her abilities are in disfavour right now, such as a potent heal or siege-capability or high mobility, all of which Riot is trying to reduce at the moment.

As such, she's not really able to "do it all", by any means, and even if she could, her itemization restricts her from doing it all in a single build, but rather limits her to focusing on one or two specialties which change based on the game and team composition present.

Without a fair amount of versatility to make up for the fact that she doesn't fit very well in the game due to her glaring flaws, she's not going to be useful at all in general, since she's already severely limited in scope.
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Solution; Don;t go in melee range until it's safe to do so.
This is a good option for her AP build, but also leaves her kind of lackluster since her abilities are then mostly wasted, leaving her with a heal and a spear, and honestly not much else. A 2 spell kit is not all that impressive by any means, and completely lacking an ultimate except for cleanup after the enemy team is no longer a threat, is more than a little silly to suggest as a plausible option.

Seriously, the whole point of an ultimate is generally to provide some game changing method to be used at the right moment to alter how it goes. By stating that she should never use her ultimate until the enemy team has already lost, is kind of stating that you aren't really considering the most basic concepts of the game =P


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ForceBlender

Senior Member

02-23-2013

Bump This sounds very interesting and really does sound like it would balance her more


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Katsuni

Senior Member

02-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ForceBlender View Post
Bump This sounds very interesting and really does sound like it would balance her more
Thanks =P

I'll confess, I've been getting a bit of a headache reading this thread as is.

No one in here has actually complained about her melee being overpowered. No one argues that her capacity to run away is a bit on the probably too high end of things.

And yet... by suggesting that her melee best strengthened slightly but her escaping be reduced, people get upset because they seem to just want a hard nerf all around simply because they like the idea of Nidalee being harmed, rather than balanced O.o

I swear, nerfmaster suck town should go elsewhere. Morello trends towards err'ing on the side of the nerfbat, but at least he usually thinks it through and has a reason for such, even if we may not agree with the reason. =P

Anyway, thanks, crappy day today and it's nice to see someone's optimistic about such at least =P


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Teralisan

Senior Member

02-23-2013

I like Cougar Form
Spears are too stronk
toooo stronk
fought a Nid once
lvl five
in lane
at tower
just got hit by a spear from the fog of war
WTF? how she have her ulti?(I had been playing for about a month and had yet to learn the basic info for a large number of champions)


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AHeroNamedHawke1

Member

02-23-2013

Darius runs into melee range too

15/30/45 armor/MR every time he uses Decimate kthx