Several Nidalee tweaks for PBE to fix the silly balance change =P

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Katsuni

Senior Member

02-23-2013

Due to the seeming desire for Nidalee to be changed to be more squishy when running away, but the fact that a straight up armour and MR nerf that's as heavy handed as has been suggested is being implemented which leads to her cat form being practically useless in combat due to being too easily killed once she's in melee range, I would propose a simple, yet elegant solution to this issue.

As many have said, the removal of her MR scaling by default isn't that bad; she's quite adept at spearing back much harder than others when she's at long range for an AP build. This isn't an issue, and should honestly remain this way.

The problem is moreso that when she enters into kittyform, then she's stuck in melee range, which means she's in range of every single spell the enemy team has, and requires some sort of survival mechanic. Every other melee champion gets SOMETHING to help survive melee range, and this would flat out remove her capacity to be in melee for any realistic manner if the armour/MR from her ultimate vanishes entirely.

Of course, it's not really possible to state she isn't slippery as hell when running, either. Perhaps too much so. Most other champions get CC; Nidalee doesn't, she just gets obscene mobility between a 15% movement speed boost after passing through bushes, and a 3.5 to 2.1 second cooldown pounce which lets her bypass terrain if you're good at using her. (Some of those jumps are exceptionally tricky though, and require near-perfect precision aim, and can backfire just as easily if you haven't used her considerably in the past before, which many people discount).

So she's too hard to catch realistically when she builds tanky with some added health, but without those boosts, she's practically useless in melee range. How do we fix this?

Simply enough, we do the following:


1: Remove the passive MR scaling from Nidalee per level. She doesn't need this when she's doing long ranged orbital bombardment with spears anyway.

2: Remove the MR and armour scaling from her ultimate as a passive benefit. This was intended to be for use while in melee combat, and is being used while running away instead.

3: Grant her pounce an actually stronger MR/armour scaling based on her ultimate's level, but only if she damages someone with the pounce.


So, what would this new pounce look like?


Quote:
Originally Posted by New Pounce
Active: Nidalee lunges forward, dealing magic damage to enemies around her landing area. If she damages an enemy, she gains 15/30/45 armour and magic resistance for 4 seconds.
It's really that simple. She's a little better equipped in melee range to survive than before, now, but she no longer gains that enormous armour/MR boost while running away.

I think pretty much everyone can agree that this would be more or less what Nidalee really needs, because it not only leaves her a little more squishy in a skillshot poking contest (where she's a little unevenly powerful), and makes her far more realistically fair to chase after, but it also leaves her a bit more effective for when she wants to use her kitty form in melee in the first place.

Additionally, due to the tricky aspect of aiming a Nidalee pounce when she's already in melee range (due to having to run back, then turn around and pounce back in, otherwise she overshoots her target), this may reduce her effectiveness at prolonged combat in melee range slightly.

To help with that issue, I actually propose another concept on the side:

Some would like her to scale AD (I know I used to love playing her ADC before the massive global support nerf rendered her mana costs unviable for such), but this is unrealistic as it'd require changing her entire build in the process.

Instead, to make her ultimate still feel like you're actually gaining something from the ultimate itself by leveling it, when Nidalee is in kittyform, her ultimate causes her autoattacks to deal bonus damage which scales off her AP.

There have been a great many AP autoattack items, masteries, and overall quality of life benefits as of late. This will grant her a new build option available (true APC melee Nidalee! ) without considerably affecting her current builds much.

In addition, there is one problem with this; her attack speed bonus simply doesn't work well in kittyform; she has to pop out to reapply it too often, and she simply doesn't have enough mana regen to sustain such on herself unless she goes pure APC. This isn't really realistic, especially since the recent nerfs to things like Nashor's Tooth, the primary weapon of choice of an on-hit melee build, leaves her rather lacking for mana regen.

Rather than buff her IAS, I propose another indirect adjustment; whenever she changes into or out of kittyform, if she has her Primal Surge IAS buff upon herself, the duration is refreshed. This encourages her to swap back and forth from kitty and human stances, and does require that she exit kittyform once in awhile as she should be doing anyway. It does, however, lower the extensive mana cost problem (140 mana a pop, owie) with maintaining her IAS upon herself, as she can exit and re-enter kittyform repeatedly to extend the duration.

As such, her new cougar form would look more like this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by New Ultimate
Toggle: Nidalee transforms herself into a cougar, gaining a new set of abilities, bonus magic damage for every melee attack she makes and 20 movement speed. Additionally, if Nidalee is buffed by her own Primal Surge, she refreshes the duration if it is upon her whenever she changes form. Nidalee loses 400 range while using this ability (effective range of 125).


  • Bonus MAGIC DAMAGE ON HIT: 5 / 15 / 25 (+ 30% AP)
Each rank in Aspect of the Cougar increases the rank of all of Nidalee's cougar abilities. The cougar abilities cannot gain ranks themselves.



In any case, these suggested changes not only prevent Nidalee from losing the use of her kittyform, but actually provide a potentially new valid build for her in the process, while correcting all of the problems that she had previously =3


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Katsuni

Senior Member

02-23-2013

NIDALEE IS A KITTY! ACKNOWLEDGE HER! Or she will sit on your keyboard.


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Wishing Umbreon

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Senior Member

02-23-2013

I like these changes. They reward her for being aggressive, yet fix the chasing problem at hand entirely. I don't know if the bonus magic damage on hit will be balanced, but if it is, that would be a cool addition.


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HBAFreightTrain

Senior Member

02-23-2013

Good idea. 10/10.


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Sagee Prime

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Senior Member

02-23-2013

I had a similar idea but with a different approach. All her cooldowns would be higher but hitting enemies would reduce her cooldowns.

Her MR per level was removed.

Her cougar bonuses remained but were halved at each rank from 10/20/30 to 5/10/15

Finally the armor scaled off 10% of her AP and the MR scaled off of 10% of her Bonus AD.

I had a few other things tossed in there but these were the ones I though belonged here.

The other idea was to do with her passive and having the percent reduced down to something like 10% instead of 15% but giving her 2.5% more for each additional second capping at 20-25% she remains in the brush and letting the duration last to 2.5 seconds instead of 2. This would make her faster in sustained chases but not as fast when a chase begins and would require constant contact with brush and support waiting abushes which fits the cougar theme.


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Wishing Umbreon

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Senior Member

02-23-2013

Here's another idea: her cougar form's passive grants 5/10/15 armor and mr for every cougar form skill she lands for 4 seconds.


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Katsuni

Senior Member

02-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishing Umbreon View Post
I like these changes. They reward her for being aggressive, yet fix the chasing problem at hand entirely. I don't know if the bonus magic damage on hit will be balanced, but if it is, that would be a cool addition.
Yarr, it was originally just going to be a suggestion for pounce alone, but then I figured... why not add the IAS and magic damage on ultimate because removing the bonuses from it leave it feeling entirely lacking as an ultimate. Only boosting her other spells just doesn't make it feel that impressive, so it does require some sort of benefit to the ultimate itself.

The IAS/Magic damage may need to be tweaked for power, as it's a lot of added sustained damage, but considering she has no real method to stay in range, due to the lack of a slow, CC, or even an actual movement speed boost, I don't think it'll be too big of a problem. She won't be that powerful on her own as she has no way to stay in melee for more than a burst effect, rather than continual damage output.

As such, the benefits are actually only really going to be effective when fighting stationary targets when she's alone such as IAS for towers; the magic per hit doesn't affect towers like most on-hit effects don't, or the magic damage for monsters like baron or dragon.

When fighting a moving target on her own, she'll still rely primarily on her burst from the spear and kitty-combo as per SOP. That part won't change. As such, her chasing potential will be roughly about the same as it currently is, though she will gain a slight increase to her damage on occasion from the odd melee hit woven into the mix.

Instead, the majority of the time that she'll truly get to make use of her AP enhanced autoattack, will be against champions who are pinned down by an ally, making it primarily used for team fights.

With the itemization of a Rylai's or a Frozen Mallet, however, it will enhance her chasing power considerably more than it already is, but honestly, that's never been the complaint with Nidalee anyway. The complaint is how much she sucks to chase down herself, which will be severely reduced with the changes offered. In replacement, her offensive power will be enhanced so that she isn't just getting a straight up nerf, but will be more useful in some roles she is currently lacking in, but would probably not be overpowered.

Play testing would need to be done to verify if it's actually in need of tweaks, as theorycrafting suggests that it's probably well within reason. =3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sagee Prime View Post
I had a similar idea but with a different approach. All her cooldowns would be higher but hitting enemies would reduce her cooldowns.
The biggest problem with this is that Nidalee tends to work primarily by bursting, and a large part of her spears is that they're powerful, but easy to dodge. Her role is less of hitting with spears, so much as herding opponents away from them by forcing the baddies to dodge her spears (or else!).

The reward is mostly when she's got a great player who's aiming from behind the treeline for some surprise spears before an enemy can realistically react.

The high mobility is kind of also still needed, as it's part of what makes her Nidalee in the first place; the capacity to roam very easily, especially in the jungle, which your changes would indirectly nerf into the ground.
Quote:
Her MR per level was removed.

Her cougar bonuses remained but were halved at each rank from 10/20/30 to 5/10/15

Finally the armor scaled off 10% of her AP and the MR scaled off of 10% of her Bonus AD.
I'm always exceedingly hesitant about giving any champion the capacity to grow defensively or offensively by putting stats into the other. Building someone like Jax full glass cannon used to make him near impossible to kill because he'd get thousands of life for free by building glass cannon. It ended up leading to him being reworked entirely because there was no realistic way to make it fair without nerfing it hard enough that it may as well not have mattered.

Still, the reversed AP/armour and AD/MR scaling kind of makes sense; APCs are generally countered by bruisers, who trend towards magical damage generally, while ADC would mean melee range and result in her needing to be resistant to magic. Unfortunately, there still isn't much reason to build AD on her as you've suggested thus far =P

If it weren't for the scaling defenses off of offensive power, though, I'd probably consider entertaining the idea further by making some of her kittyform stats into AD ratios. I'm not sure it's the best decision though, since it involves a massive rework of her entire champion design as well as all of her itemization to make it work. Ideally we do want to enhance her options, rather than completely remove some aspects of play.

Changing more of her kittyform attacks to AD ratios does kind of mean her kittyform's not really useful anymore in an AP build, and also means her AP is now lacking for a method of farming minion waves. Adding both an AD and AP ratio makes her overpowered with things like gunblade stacking, and I'd just as soon not get her nerfed into the ground because of that mistake again (Akali and Katarina already learned this the hard way, let's not repeat that =P ).
Quote:
I had a few other things tossed in there but these were the ones I though belonged here.

The other idea was to do with her passive and having the percent reduced down to something like 10% instead of 15% but giving her 2.5% more for each additional second capping at 20-25% she remains in the brush and letting the duration last to 2.5 seconds instead of 2. This would make her faster in sustained chases but not as fast when a chase begins and would require constant contact with brush and support waiting abushes which fits the cougar theme.
The idea of having her pounce out of the bushes more ready for a short term chase is nice. I don't so much like the idea of the extended chasing in the jungle but... I do confess the idea of a smaller movement speed boost that grows the longer you're in it adds a new mechanic to her for early game surprise attacks.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure how useful this would be in practice; bushes are typically warded, she's not a very good jungler pre-6 without having her ultimate be available at level 1, which I don't think they want because she'd be far too powerful with a spear out of the jungle that no one expects (no realistic way to avoid such short of spamming out twice as many wards, which would lead to a heavy handed spear nerf), and it would mean a hit to her chasing potential, which she probably needs more of rather than less, due to her already painfully notable lack of CC.

Still, there are some interesting ideas there. While I don't think they could be implemented as-is, they do offer some things to think about =3


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ZeroSoulreaver

Senior Member

02-23-2013

This sounds like a good idea.

I agree, if the problem is the resistance then they should make it situational as they do with other champions.


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Kaylnaz

Senior Member

02-23-2013

no

nidalee will still be broken after her nerfs because you can't actually do anything to her


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Katsuni

Senior Member

02-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishing Umbreon View Post
Here's another idea: her cougar form's passive grants 5/10/15 armor and mr for every cougar form skill she lands for 4 seconds.
I'd actually considered that exact concept originally =P

Honestly, it's still not a bad idea by having it stack up to 3 times and refreshes past that point. She pounces, swipes, then uses take down and that would be the same 15/30/45.

The main reason I avoided it, was that it involved punishing her for getting an early kill. She leaps in, and gets the kill! Oh wait, she's down to 15 armour/MR, instead of 45, and gets killed for doing her job. Hence why I ended up moving away from it.

It's a nice idea, honestly, but a single larger boost off of her pounce alone seemed a bit more effective since she needs the full bonus immediately upon entering into melee range, and I didn't care for the concept of a potential punishment for killing someone too fast =P

That, and keeping it on her pounce ensures that she can't swipe, take down, then use her pounce to run away, which would leave us with exactly the same problem we have right now where she can use her pounce to run. With the current set up I've suggested, she's kind of stuck being forced to use her pounce to run INTO melee, rather than OUT of melee, unless there are minions nearby. Since Akali, Katarina and several other champions have that capacity already, who are primarily pure offensive with their primary "escape" mechanisms being mostly offensive in nature as well, (Akali's invisibility is used mostly for juking and waiting for minions to get close enough to dash to), I consider that to be reasonable =3

Anyway, it was a good idea! I ended up abandoning it while working on this problem for the aforementioned reasons, but you had the right starting point =3