League of WARMOGS

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

IamDuddits

Senior Member

02-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troy242621 View Post
Oh I don't want the game to be one-shotting left and right, but a burst champion ought to be able to dish out serious damage without out-farming them by a square mile. It's quite clear that defense is more helpful that offence because it has no counterplay atm. They should be, in my opinion, equally viable. That is where I personally stand, sorry if I was unclear. Just want to clarify a bit, I don't want an overbearing offence.
I think we are on roughly the same page. I agree that a nukers job should be to nuke, usually taking one person out of the fight early on, but as of right now most of the nukers can do a majority of the damage in a team fight with enough farm which just dwarfs most ADC with comparable farm. Even a farmed ADC can't compete with a farmed AD/AP caster in terms of the amount of damage they can output over such a brief time period.

Also you brought up a good point about farm that is worth elaborating on. I know a lot of players tend to **** all over the fact that Intelligence heroes (most nuker/casters) in DotA became "useless" late game. One thing they fail to realize is that many of these heroes had almost no item dependence. They didn't need to farm mid lane every game to keep on par with enemy survivability because their damage scaling per level was much better than in LoL and most importantly because the big survivability items took a long time to farm up. With that being said, I know a lot of players would cringe at the idea of nerfing scaling ratios a bit or buff resistances, but if HP stacking gets nerfed then burst damage needs to get put in check too. Also, scaling ability damage off of AD (aka Bruisers) needs to get removed. Stupidest idea ever was having abilities scale off of AD, plain and simple.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

DraegonSpawn

Senior Member

02-25-2013

In general I would say that health stacking is still clearly superior. Blade of the Ruined King and Liandry's Torment both do nicely against health stackers...if you have a high attack speed or a high cast rate respectively. Which means they really work on some champions to great effect.
But the issue of everyone grabbing Warmogs IS THERE. I think mixing the new Warmogs with the old one is how to go about it. Try these stats:

+700 Health
Unique Passive: Restore 1.5 percent of maximum health per 5/seconds.
Unique Passive: On minion kill gain 3.5 permanent health, on a Champion kill or assist gain 35, to maximum bonus of 300. 1/3 of stacks lost on death.

This would make it to where opponents have a chance to stop your health from maxing (via blocking minions or killing), and the one wearing the armor is pressured into farming/pushing to max it out. Also it makes it to where burst champions DON'T exit the picture once a warmogs is bought in their lane.

Oh and make resistances worth something.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Speakerboxx64

Junior Member

02-25-2013

Honestly they should just break giant's belt into a 2 part item, the problem isn't just warmogs but giant's belt itself and all the items it turns into, it should be a defensive item with a major cost for those who choose to build that defensive build. It forces the tanks to build on it essentially and means the bruisers will have to sacrifice more farm and item space to build into a defensive item. Champs shouldn't be able to build brutalizer and float it while building mogs and frozen mallet into mid game where they can 2v1 the squishier champs, if a bruiser wants that defensiveness then they have to sacrifice damage for it.

This is game is quickly losing it's fun and flair when everyone is running around with 3.5-4k hp and pure damage roles get thrown out the window.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Xanthios

Junior Member

02-26-2013

If everyone can build it then its not op... In my opinion its just a further snowball item for bruisers like Garen who buy it to become unkillable for a portion of the game. In the case of adc fights, if 2 identical ad carries were fighting on on one with one having a warmogs and the other having a second bt or botrk, the damage adc would win... Maybe the slighest nerf just to discourage every role from buying otherwise its not that bad


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Negrojefe

Senior Member

02-26-2013

Warmog is NOT a problem, at all. Health is not the problem. Warmog is NOT more powerful than S2 one was.

The problem is that Warmog is THE ONLY CHOICE if you want to get some tankyness because armor and magic resist are worthless.

There are people playing against entire teams of ad enemies and not building a single thornmail, why? Because thornmail wouldnt do **** against the black cleavers and LW of the enemy.

Stop asking Warmog to receive even more nerfs, Warmog is not the problem, at all, the problem is armor pen and magic pen, if you want burst matches go play Dota, but leave us a MOBA where teamfights last for more than 3 seconds to those of us that enjoy it please.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

IamDuddits

Senior Member

02-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Negrojefe View Post
Warmog is NOT a problem, at all. Health is not the problem. Warmog is NOT more powerful than S2 one was.

The problem is that Warmog is THE ONLY CHOICE if you want to get some tankyness because armor and magic resist are worthless.

There are people playing against entire teams of ad enemies and not building a single thornmail, why? Because thornmail wouldnt do **** against the black cleavers and LW of the enemy.

Stop asking Warmog to receive even more nerfs, Warmog is not the problem, at all, the problem is armor pen and magic pen, if you want burst matches go play Dota, but leave us a MOBA where teamfights last for more than 3 seconds to those of us that enjoy it please.
I agree that Armor and MR are useless, but keep in mind that Warmog's and anything that builds from Giant's Belt give way too much survivability for the cost. There is really no reason not to get them. Armor and MR aside, a giant's belt alone gives the holder between 30-40% flat HP increase for 1000 g. It just keeps AD being useless because it already takes them forever to kill anything compared to Bruisers/AP at any phase of the game.

And honestly, I'm fine with team fights lasting longer, but as is sustained DPS doesn't eat through the hit point pools fast enough. These survivability items make AD "carries" damage output look like a complete joke compared to what Bruisers and Casters can do for less work and less farm. What you are suggesting will not just make fights last more than 3 seconds, but it'll make them into a poke-poke snoozefest.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Negrojefe

Senior Member

02-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by IamDuddits View Post
I agree that Armor and MR are useless, but keep in mind that Warmog's and anything that builds from Giant's Belt give way too much survivability for the cost. There is really no reason not to get them. Armor and MR aside, a giant's belt alone gives the holder between 30-40% flat HP increase for 1000 g. It just keeps AD being useless because it already takes them forever to kill anything compared to Bruisers/AP at any phase of the game.

And honestly, I'm fine with team fights lasting longer, but as is sustained DPS doesn't eat through the hit point pools fast enough. These survivability items make AD "carries" damage output look like a complete joke compared to what Bruisers and Casters can do for less work and less farm. What you are suggesting will not just make fights last more than 3 seconds, but it'll make them into a poke-poke snoozefest.
Actually, health doesnt counter ad, at least not adc. Health counters burst damage, which is most common among AP.

Giant belt give less survibability than in S2, because it was already nerfed. The problem is not Warmog, nor Giant Belt. The reason why you see so many of them now is because the options that were previously picked are now useless, so everyone that wants some tankyness, HAS TO buy one of them.

Thornmail, QSS, and all the defensive items that were used in S2 but gave no health have become irrelevant, and therefore everyone picks health.

The solution IS NOT to nerf the only remaining option for some tankyness.

They are buffing BotK now, and im sure they can buff it more and buff Liandry if they need to, but they need to buff resistances first if they intend to, in any case, nerfing health is not the option.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

IamDuddits

Senior Member

02-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Negrojefe View Post
Actually, health doesnt counter ad, at least not adc. Health counters burst damage, which is most common among AP.

Giant belt give less survibability than in S2, because it was already nerfed. The problem is not Warmog, nor Giant Belt. The reason why you see so many of them now is because the options that were previously picked are now useless, so everyone that wants some tankyness, HAS TO buy one of them.

Thornmail, QSS, and all the defensive items that were used in S2 but gave no health have become irrelevant, and therefore everyone picks health.

The solution IS NOT to nerf the only remaining option for some tankyness.

They are buffing BotK now, and im sure they can buff it more and buff Liandry if they need to, but they need to buff resistances first if they intend to, in any case, nerfing health is not the option.
Let me be more clear. I agree that MR and Armor are useless. They've been useless since the concept of % based Armor/MR reduction was added but no one realized this until they decided to do % reduction first which was a huge buff to LW/VS. I agree that they need to make Armor and MR useful.

However, what you are failing to realize is that if you make Armor and MR useful then there is nothing prevent people from building Warmog's + good reductions. Warmog's is very cheap for the survivability it gives. I'd like to further reiterate this point in case you didn't catch it: Just because Armor and MR become useful doesn't mean people will stop stacking HP. People were building HP since before the Armor/MR nerf. Rylai's and Rod of Ages are popular picks because they give a lot of AP and a lot of survivability. Same with Frozen Mallet and same with Sunfire/Randuin's These are all items that are built in almost every game hands down because they have amazing survivability and good passives. Warmog's is a very, very cheap item for what it gives, but I will concede that I believe it's Giant's Belt along with the complete lack of proper pricing on items in the game that is to blame. That, however, is a discussion that deviates too much from the post.

HP counters AD in this game as much as it counters Burst. It lengthens the time that the carrier stays alive and if that is long enough for their **** to come off CD then the AD is likely dead. If anything I'd say it counters AP less in LoL than it does nukers in DotA because nukes scale all game, have shorter cooldowns, and are significantly cheaper. Top that with the fact that AD doesn't scale nearly as hard or have the tools (items) at their disposal to survive nearly as long in a fight or even 1v1s then it becomes apparent why ADs Flash, escape mechanisms, ranged attacks, and a team that can stun lock and peel everything off of them. ADs in this game function like DPS in a WoW raid.

Also keep in mind that the people building Warmog's tend to be Bruisers/Tanky DPS which rely on burst damage as well, which by nature of logic counters ADC which have low hit point pools.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Negrojefe

Senior Member

02-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by IamDuddits View Post
Let me be more clear. I agree that MR and Armor are useless. They've been useless since the concept of % based Armor/MR reduction was added but no one realized this until they decided to do % reduction first which was a huge buff to LW/VS. I agree that they need to make Armor and MR useful.

However, what you are failing to realize is that if you make Armor and MR useful then there is nothing prevent people from building Warmog's + good reductions. Warmog's is very cheap for the survivability it gives.

HP counters AD in this game as much as it counters Burst. It lengthens the time that the carrier stays alive and if that is long enough for their **** to come off CD then the AD is likely dead. If anything I'd say it counters AP less in LoL than it does nukers in DotA because nukes scale all game, have shorter cooldowns, and are significantly cheaper. Top that with the fact that AD doesn't scale nearly as hard or have the tools (items) at their disposal to survive nearly as long in a fight or even 1v1s then it becomes apparent why ADs Flash, escape mechanisms, ranged attacks, and a team that can stun lock and peel everything off of them. ADs in this game function like DPS in a WoW raid.

Also keep in mind that the people building Warmog's tend to be Bruisers/Tanky DPS which rely on burst damage as well, which by nature of logic counters ADC which have low hit point pools.
If they build all defensive items (Warmog + defensive items) then they do very little damage.

Warmog is not cheap for the suvivability that gives, Warmog is the ONLY thing that gives acceptable levels of survivabilioty right now.

HP doesnt counter AD in this game. The problem is that right now, HP is the only choice to counter damage. Why do you think more and more people are using AD over AP if health counters AP less in lol and everyone is getting so much health? Why do you think most ap carries have been replaced with AD ones?

Yes, ADs function like the DPS, they are the ones that need to do the sustained damage to kill big health guys, exactly what i told you.

Now, another problem (which does not directly invovles health but makes the current situation viable) is that AD bruisers have too much base damage on their skills, which enables them to builds all defensive items (and in todays LoL, that means full health).
But the solution to that problem is NOT to nerf Warmog's either.

Health (and Warmog as prime examples) is the only reason why we dont see teams with 4 assasins and the only reason why fights are not decided by who sees the enemy first, which would be the result of applying most of the "suggestions" to "fix" Warmogs in this forums.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

IamDuddits

Senior Member

02-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Negrojefe View Post
If they build all defensive items (Warmog + defensive items) then they do very little damage.
You cover this later in the post and I'll discuss it more there, but Bruisers don't need to because they're base values are so high. They can basically build TBC (which gives HP anyways) and they have all the damage/penetration they need. They could build Atma's for kicks if they wanted to I guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Negrojefe View Post
Warmog is not cheap for the suvivability that gives, Warmog is the ONLY thing that gives acceptable levels of survivabilioty right now.
I've already agreed with you twice now that Armor and MR are complete trash. Now I'll carefully explain this. Warmog's may seem fine to you now because Armor and MR are garbage, but keep in mind that once Armor and MR become decent again then they increase EHP greatly. This mean's that Warmog's needs to be nerfed in addition to Armor or MR being buffed. To elaborate further, Warmog's is already very effective now at making AP useless as you've pointed out. Imagine what it will do when MR and Armor actually provide decent reductions. Are we on the same page here now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Negrojefe View Post
Yes, ADs function like the DPS, they are the ones that need to do the sustained damage to kill big health guys, exactly what i told you.
I was trying to make a point that this is bad design. It's a moba that plays like an MMO with a very specific party composition that needs to be adhered to (you know, the meta that has been around for the past 2 seasons). You have tanks that need to peel/taunt off the carry and everything that isn't a pure tank needs to keep aggro off them. Team fights are very stale and it has a lot to do with the very linear gameplay of hero roles. Every ranged carry builds and plays identical to every other carry in the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Negrojefe View Post
Now, another problem (which does not directly invovles health but makes the current situation viable) is that AD bruisers have too much base damage on their skills, which enables them to builds all defensive items (and in todays LoL, that means full health).
But the solution to that problem is NOT to nerf Warmog's either.
I agree that Warmog's has nothing to do here. The base values on bruiser abilities are way too high. They do way too much damage for how little damage they usually need to build. It's rather dumb to be honest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Negrojefe View Post
Health (and Warmog as prime examples) is the only reason why we dont see teams with 4 assasins and the only reason why fights are not decided by who sees the enemy first, which would be the result of applying most of the "suggestions" to "fix" Warmogs in this forums.
This has more to do with the fact that LoL relies too heavily on burst damage, which is a result of scaling ability damage comparable to a carry. One of the draw backs of burst damage is usually cooldowns and damage output. If the burst damage always exceeds the targets max HP at every phase of the game then Burst is always better than sustained damage. The reason why carries could get out of control in DotA is because at some point they could survive the burst damage (because it didn't scale) long enough to deal their damage. In League this isn't possible because the itemization doesn't exist and because nukes can keep on par with hit point pools. As a result, burst damage excels in the game at all phases. Combine this with the number of gap closers in the game and ADs generally can't get close enough to the fight unless the team is permastunned.

DotA was a game of strategy and counterplay through items, LoL is more about twitch reflexes in team fights for pealing and CC. Just look at the number of gap closers and the balancing of the game around Flash. And I agree 4 assassins would be boring to watch, but this is what happens when a game is designed in the manner that LoL is.