What is ELO hell?

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alaskaneagle

Senior Member

01-29-2012

9 out of the last 10 games I played the ONLY decideing factore for who won was who has the troll on their team.
If you have to win a lot to get out of "elo hell" than it's impossible unless you are increadebly lucky. Skill isn't deciding win/loss. Trolls are so no matter how good a player you are you are stuck.


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alaskaneagle

Senior Member

01-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by syn3rgyz View Post
doesn't account for the amount of jungle shen, AP ashe and "I'm last pick but i'm solo top and if i'm not i'll just feed" that I encounter
Pretty much. There are so many trolls they need to start figuring them into the equation.


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Disgruntler

Senior Member

01-29-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by alaskaneagle View Post
Pretty much. There are so many trolls they need to start figuring them into the equation.
They have, and the math is really simple.

Let p=the probability of a single slot having a troll/afk/leaver/whatever undesirable.

Let's call the slots you're not in slots 1-4.

The chances of having one or more troll in slot 1-4=

4p-6p^2+2p^3-p^4.

This chance is equal for both sides, so we'll just call it q to save space.

The chance of having the fifth slot taken by a troll on your side is 0

Thus, the total chance of a troll on your side is q+0-0q... or just q.

The chance of the fifth slot being taken on the other side is p.

Thus, the total chance of a troll on the other side = q+p-pq.

The difference between the two is pq-p in your favor.

Therefore, so long as you are not yourself a troll, your team has a better chance of overcoming the troll chance.


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Bezant Gebal

Senior Member

01-31-2012

Say your chances of not having a troll/problem player are better due to you (hopefully) not being one.... doesn't mean you won't get one 10 times in a row. As your elo descends, so increases the randomness of the players. Maybe "1900" elo folks can carry themselves out of it, but a 1500? 1300? A lot less likely. Doing a flat analysis that elo is 10% accurate (in that you play 1/10th of the game), a "true" 1500 could be anywhere between ~825 and 2175 based on random odds and be "accurately" represented. - which if you happen to random to the lower end of the spectrum means 90% of your games are a headache and really kind of not fun.


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Panzerfaust

Emissary of the League

01-31-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bezant Gebal View Post
Say your chances of not having a troll/problem player are better due to you (hopefully) not being one.... doesn't mean you won't get one 10 times in a row. As your elo descends, so increases the randomness of the players. Maybe "1900" elo folks can carry themselves out of it, but a 1500? 1300? A lot less likely. Doing a flat analysis that elo is 10% accurate (in that you play 1/10th of the game), a "true" 1500 could be anywhere between ~825 and 2175 based on random odds and be "accurately" represented. - which if you happen to random to the lower end of the spectrum means 90% of your games are a headache and really kind of not fun.
Except we're not just talking about '1900' players carrying through the 800-900 range, we're talking about them carrying clear up until they get pretty close to their accurate Elo. This means that sure a '1500' player might not hard carry his games in the 1400 range, but as you get further away from your 'true' Elo, you become more likely to be the strongest player in your team and thus more likely to carry.

This is of course assuming that you're as skilled as you think you are, say 5% of the population actually knows where they 'should be' (I can throw out random statistics as well, it's one of my many self-proclaimed talents). For the rest of the mob, they're not nearly as good as they think they are. It's the subpar college athlete wondering why they didn't go first in the NFL draft even though they deserve to be there (who cares if their records haven't been that great).

Certainly some levels of skill play out a bit differently, but that doesn't mean 'you need new strategies built solely on getting out of "Elo Hell."' Instead, all it means is that you don't know how to modify your game plan on the fly; most players think 'if I play the way the pros do I should win every game,' only they can't play 'the way the pros do' without playing with pros. This doesn't mean that pros don't know how to play against inferior players, far from it. It means that pros play a certain way in high Elo games because they know how their opponents are likely to react and play accordingly. Similarly, they play the same way at lower levels, the only difference is that their opponents are more likely to react differently (and to be brutally honest, more primitively). It only gives the appearance that they play differently at different Elos because players don't understand the thoughts behind their actions. In a militaristic analogy, while you wouldn't use the same 'attack' on an entrenched enemy as you would one out in the open, the thought process behind it is the same; how can I use my strengths and exploit their weaknesses to improve my position at while minimizing my losses.


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Bezant Gebal

Senior Member

01-31-2012

The 10% flat accuracy is more to the point - that alone can prevent someone from ever reaching (or enable one to supersede) their "true" elo by a rather wide margin. I'm not saying anyone knows what they truly ought to be rated, and a 90% circumstantial rating impedes that rather than alleviates knowing.

And then there's still the 10 in a row losses due to trolls/problem players possibility - which doesn't only happen to you but happens to people better than you as well, which is the randomness as elo descends I mentioned - you get some very good people who've had bad breaks and some really poor people and a lot of afkers/trolls/ragers, which makes it all the harder to ascend out of the pit (assuming you shouldn't be there).

In short, the argument that one will always approach their true elo is kinda bunk - it works in a static environment wherein everyone you play against is where they're supposed to be, but in a dynamic system where there's a potential 90% variation in any of your opponents' (or teammates') rating, the whole thing becomes that much more of a crapshoot.


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XxBTExX

Member

02-05-2012

Being new to Ranked games, I went from the 1200 to 800ish quite fast. I was doing really bad and lost 8 times in a row. Yesterday I managed to get 7 wins in a row and then today I lost about 7 times and won about 2. Out of the 7 times I did poorly in 2 of the matches. Lost 3 due to afk. Seems like its impossible to get my rating up and most of the time its just 1 or 2 people that do so terrible its impossible for the other 4 to carry.


Reminds me about when I used to play Halo 2. Getting past the levels 22-28 was a pain because you would always get a teammate who would leave the match, some guy using cheats or a "de-ranker". I remember being level 32 and I stopped playing for a while. When I started playing I that well so I went down into the level 28 and from there I dropped to 25 thanks to all of the cheating and "de-rankers". It took about 2 months for me to get to 30.


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TwistWrist

Senior Member

02-05-2012

Your Elo isn't low because of AFK's.


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Saisaith

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

02-06-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by terembura View Post
The basis of this whole Elo hell thing is that in the Elo ranking system everyone starts with the same rank (1200). At this level there are incredibly huge real skill differences. For example:

- Someone who played tons of Normal games (like 1500 with 2000+ normal game Elo) just started playing ranked games and his Elo is 1200.
- Someone with 100 played ranked match with 50/50 win/loss has 1200 Elo.
- A fresh level 30 guy with about 150 played games also starts with 1200 Elo.

There can be a huge gap between the above three guys' true skill, but the matchmaking can (and will) put them in the same match. So THEORITCALLY (!!!) Elo hell can exist, because a very high profile player at rank 1200 can be matched up with total newbies over and over an over again, while the opponent's team has better (but also ranked 1100-1300) players in it. Which will cause the said player's rank to fall deep into the Elo hell.

Once someone in lower ranked games (like 1000-), there is a higher chance to get a leaver or an afk-er in his team (according to many forum posts), which makes it even harder and slower to climb out of that Elo bracket. The other thing that slows down the process is that when you first play ranked games you gain/lose many rank points (like 30ish) but after a few matches you gain less and less. So if you unlucky with your first placement matches, you can fall down to 900 Elo with 15-20 played matches, but to climb out you have to win 30-40 matches.

But as I said this is just a theory. Many higher and mid Elo players proved that they can climb up in the ladder even from 900- Elo to 1400+ Elo with ease. So if someone says he is in Elo hell he is probably

a) a bad player who deserves to be there
b) an incredibly unlucky person
Says it all right here! Just understand, you can always make your Elo better and you can always turn games around!

Never give up!

Good luck with your ranked games!


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NqqLBJoSA0dtfyRT

Junior Member

02-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panzerfaust View Post
I'm not saying to wait for that many games (the main reason is that I've been playing since before the store opened, and I haven't had as much time to play recently; I haven't been improving since I can't play as much). What I meant, is more of a mental issue. If you don't have a firm grasp on several champions of each role, you're not ready for ranked. If you don't know what every champion can do, at least a basic understanding, you're not ready for ranked. If you don't understand the fundamentals of the game (even if you're not good at them, you need to know them), you're not ready for ranked.

You're ready for ranked when you have a selection of champions you can and are willing to use to better your team's chances of winning. You're ready when you've matured mentally enough that you've learned that sometimes your best chance at winning is taking a break; there's no use playing games when you're in a 'funk'.

Suffice it to say, that a lot of players who play ranked aren't even close to ready for it. They play it because they think it's the next step after hitting 30, or because they want to test out draft mode. While you don't have to be the best player to play ranked, you should have a mindset that is different than normal; fun = winning.
The mindset of having fun when playing is the best key to success, true story, no doubt. Here's an example:

A very long time ago I used to play Bloodline Champions, and around a year ago I quit LoL just to play that game and I found it more interesting because LoL was getting boring for many reasons.

However, I started playing bloodline champions and i found it to be a very fun game and i dedicated myself to the game and wanted to be one of the beast RDD(Ranged Damage Dealers), in the role of the Igniter. After 6 months of hard-work and gameplay I managed to reach my goal. Right after that I quit, and again, for several reasons.

However, I got back into the game and an old fella of mine who also mained the Igniter had now found an insane team because SK splitup and he formed a team with their main healer and that together with one of the best spearmasters' in the game, Mty. I was happy for his sake because the Igniter named Verosk had always been a bit better than me. In 1v1s he always won, but in 3v3s it could range to me winning over him and the opposite of course.

At one time the game developers patched the game and I enjoyed what they had done to it so I ended up playing again. But my old team was disbanded and none of the guys i knew from the team were in will of making a new one, therefore I created a completely new team with some other guys. And there I was facing the top team of the entire blc(bloodline champs) in which Verosk, mty+chipshajen played in. And guess what? I was so excited and thrilled of facing them that I had never played that well in my entire career of blc, i outskilled verosk in 3 seconds burning his hp from 100% to 0, he was shocked. And this all thanks to my mindset; fun.

Fungaming is the deadilest weapon, where this comes from not even I can answer...