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@Riot Are you OK with ADCs where they are now?

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berserkhobo85

Senior Member

02-21-2013

I agree here I used to love carrying now it seems like a carry is just a liability. Its too hard to kill health stacking champagne who are going bot now because they know carries can't touch them. It seems like carries are a thing of the past. Then even when you do play a carry it seems like you have the same build to do the damage needed and that is 2 PDs an IE and a BT. With the same build its boaring and too risky to play a carry for the reward that is there for you.


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Croanin

Senior Member

02-21-2013

If you peel for your ADC he'll still melt the enemy team late game. It seems like you can't play the kill my carry before you kill mine game anymore.


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SeCKS Egai

Senior Member

02-21-2013

Quote:
Xengre:
Melee ADC can get into a fight, but they can't simply back off then go back in and back off and go back in. They do not possess such mobility. Vayne gets Phantom Dancer, Tumbe, and a Knock back. She regularly runs Phantom for reasons such as this. Ez often gets phage/Trinity/Iceborn so kiting is no problem for him, Ashe..., Tristana has amazing range as does Kog Maw (but if they get into that range without being properly protected then Kog is fodder, Trist is not). If anything they have far better chance of surviving then a melee ADC (and I am not refering to tower diving at this point at all). The entire point of a ranged ADC is to be able to go offense while abusing their range to stay much safer then a melee champ.


Before I touch mobility - you're contradicting yourself here. The point several of us had try to make is that you can't treat melee and ranged adcs the same as they play differently - which you state right here.

As for the mobility, I'm referring to their ability to move to engage targets. Melees get gap closers and rightfully so as they need them. Not only do they get higher base movement speeds, but can "phase out" and "land" at an opponent. Even with Vayne's passive, while I get a movement speed bonus that can be multiplied by final hour, it's not instantaneous.




Quote:
Xengre:

Base numbers? The base numbers as I showed you are not enough to make the difference you are talking about here, especially MS and mres. The ranged ADCs have been being nerfed forever, not buffed, due to being too powerful. This is also part of the reason certain ADC items got minor nerfs.
A single BV or QSS built into Zephyr eventually can make all the difference. They also have Barrier and Cleanse to help their survivability. Oh... and Exhaust which is very powerful. Then you got a support who quite likely has either heal or exhaust. Iron Locket of Solari on a teammate. Aegis/Bullwark. Surviving as an ADC isn't exactly a problem atm...



Your 8/10/8 score with Graves would say otherwise. The enemy trist went 13/4/8. Aside from trist's jump and scaling range, there are a number of reasons to explain the gap in scores. But at over 40 minutes, you still had yet to build a single defensive item. My guess is that even with your experience your lane lost, otherwise trist wouldn't have so few deaths. You couldn't exactly afford to build a def item yet because you needed more damage - looks like you were workin on last whisper. Maybe your support couldn't maintain zone control or maybe you just did poorly. Perhaps the enemy jungler camped or ganked effectively.

You said lanes/laning doesn't matter - that game is a prime example of how the bot lane sets up the team fights for the adc. Heck, just look at my recent scores as adc, they're all over the place. Even my Cait game I shouldn't have gotten zoned hard, but neither the support nor I were able to apply pressure in the right spots to keep the enemy on the defensive. Stun vs stun it was the junglers who ended up deciding the fate of that lane. While I could have farmed a little better, their jungler came by more and applied pressure.



Quote:
Xengre:

Armor pen was buffed thus buffing ADC dramatically. So they stack health? That is an additive increase for the most part in survivability. Armor was multiplicative. C'mon you can figure this one out. There is no debating this point as its simply a mathematical fact.


I can. Armor reduces damage by a percentage. If your health runs out, it doesn't matter how much of a percentage is reduced if its enough to set you to zero health. On someone like Graves you'll especially feel like you do little damage once the warmog's come out. Remember, folks get scaling base armor.


Quote:
Xengre:

You talk about numbers but then refer to Vayne's steroids. This is what makes her great, not her base AD, base HP, base mres, base MS. It is her steroids and maneuverability with tumble/passive in a fight.


Her base ad is weak - not as weak as Ashe, but still weak. Her base stat numbers are pretty low across the board. However, it's the base numbers of her abilities that have taken the hits. Silver bolts is what makes Vayne the ultimate late game carry, not her tumble, not her condemn, not her Final Hour ultimate, its the silver bolts that set her apart from the crowd. I don't use tumble in teamfights for the bonus damage, I use it for positioning and dodging.



Quote:
Xengre:


MS gets weaker as it goes up... since PD was nerfed it would have had an impact if base MS weren't buffed so much. Here are the numbers:
12% MS PD with Ashe at 300 = 336 MS
5% MS PD with Ashe at 325 = 341.25 MS
Seems MS got a buff in S3, if you count the fact that boots 1 is not mandatory anymore it was a monstrous buff. ADC can realistically forgo boots 2 early/mid game if they choose (more so if they run MS quints which rnt bad on some ADCs). This is why PD was nerfed, to keep it from being even more ridiculous in S3.
Regardless, once you get to the point of say a ranged ADC wiht 407 MS vs a melee ADC with 426 there isn't much difference, it would take 5-6 seconds before they start showing any real separation due to the minor difference in MS at such a high value.


Movement speed has softcaps - I'm well aware.

But when you have a multiplier of MS (MS bonus), improving the number multiplied goes a long way.

Fiora is 350
Yi is 355

Vayne is 330 (without passive buffs)
Cait is 325
Ez is 325

Since they took 25 movement out of the boots and added them to all champions, it still should be pretty clear that there's a difference between no boots and tier 1. But lets say we get berzerkers on all:

350 - 395 x5%= 415

355 - 400 x5% = 420

325 - 370 x5% = 389

330 - 375 x5% = 394

If 25 movement speed makes a difference, note the amount of ms gained. That 20 for the 400s....

Quote:
Xengre:

In S1 by your definition it was broken. The one counter to ranged ADC is getting past everything to get next to the ADC to kill its squishy ass... except they can kill me faster. S3 someone stacking health won't come even remotely close to the same DPS output. The DPS of the carry (including skills in DPS) will if built right be 3-4x that one bruiser's DPS, potentially more with full build. Like I said, you are wrong to make assumptions as to what I play or am familiar with and my knowledge versus others on this forums regarding this game.


NOt quite. Assassins filled a role of bursting down squishy targets. They're built for damage. Bruisers aren't assassin's, but can end up playing that way while building a combination of survival/damage.

I wasn't making assumptions, Iw was making observations based on your data.

As to what you play - I looked at your history. I don't know why you're defensive if you've got over 1000 wins. I've got well over 2000 if I were to count ai (be we know those don't count) , and I was gone for season almost all of seaon 2. If you're going to claim vayne's q and ult are the reason she's popular late game, that's going to diminish any credibility.

But really - the majority in here are conveying a similar experience that you claim isn't accurate. I've been running adc since I started, and while I've never been amazing at it, I've had my pentas and all that jazz. I would think maybe the competition has simply gotten better as I have over time, but that wouldn't account for the fact that in most games where someone snowballs, it's not the adc doing the heavy lifting anymore.


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TheDphat

Senior Member

02-21-2013

Agreed


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Judgment19

Senior Member

02-21-2013

i agree


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Jhonnathan

Recruiter

02-21-2013

Amen bro !!!!!! no madred no moar league of tankys :::: or:::::: LEAGUE OF BRUISERS


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Hellbringth4th

Senior Member

02-21-2013

I personally wish I had Madred's back. :/


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Xengre

Senior Member

02-21-2013

Quote:
xSeCKSx:
Before I touch mobility - you're contradicting yourself here. The point several of us had try to make is that you can't treat melee and ranged adcs the same as they play differently - which you state right here.

As for the mobility, I'm referring to their ability to move to engage targets. Melees get gap closers and rightfully so as they need them. Not only do they get higher base movement speeds, but can "phase out" and "land" at an opponent. Even with Vayne's passive, while I get a movement speed bonus that can be multiplied by final hour, it's not instantaneous.







Your 8/10/8 score with Graves would say otherwise. The enemy trist went 13/4/8. Aside from trist's jump and scaling range, there are a number of reasons to explain the gap in scores. But at over 40 minutes, you still had yet to build a single defensive item. My guess is that even with your experience your lane lost, otherwise trist wouldn't have so few deaths. You couldn't exactly afford to build a def item yet because you needed more damage - looks like you were workin on last whisper. Maybe your support couldn't maintain zone control or maybe you just did poorly. Perhaps the enemy jungler camped or ganked effectively.

You said lanes/laning doesn't matter - that game is a prime example of how the bot lane sets up the team fights for the adc. Heck, just look at my recent scores as adc, they're all over the place. Even my Cait game I shouldn't have gotten zoned hard, but neither the support nor I were able to apply pressure in the right spots to keep the enemy on the defensive. Stun vs stun it was the junglers who ended up deciding the fate of that lane. While I could have farmed a little better, their jungler came by more and applied pressure.





I can. Armor reduces damage by a percentage. If your health runs out, it doesn't matter how much of a percentage is reduced if its enough to set you to zero health. On someone like Graves you'll especially feel like you do little damage once the warmog's come out. Remember, folks get scaling base armor.




Her base ad is weak - not as weak as Ashe, but still weak. Her base stat numbers are pretty low across the board. However, it's the base numbers of her abilities that have taken the hits. Silver bolts is what makes Vayne the ultimate late game carry, not her tumble, not her condemn, not her Final Hour ultimate, its the silver bolts that set her apart from the crowd. I don't use tumble in teamfights for the bonus damage, I use it for positioning and dodging.





Movement speed has softcaps - I'm well aware.

But when you have a multiplier of MS (MS bonus), improving the number multiplied goes a long way.

Fiora is 350
Yi is 355

Vayne is 330 (without passive buffs)
Cait is 325
Ez is 325

Since they took 25 movement out of the boots and added them to all champions, it still should be pretty clear that there's a difference between no boots and tier 1. But lets say we get berzerkers on all:

350 - 395 x5%= 415

355 - 400 x5% = 420

325 - 370 x5% = 389

330 - 375 x5% = 394

If 25 movement speed makes a difference, note the amount of ms gained. That 20 for the 400s....



NOt quite. Assassins filled a role of bursting down squishy targets. They're built for damage. Bruisers aren't assassin's, but can end up playing that way while building a combination of survival/damage.

I wasn't making assumptions, Iw was making observations based on your data.

As to what you play - I looked at your history. I don't know why you're defensive if you've got over 1000 wins. I've got well over 2000 if I were to count ai (be we know those don't count) , and I was gone for season almost all of seaon 2. If you're going to claim vayne's q and ult are the reason she's popular late game, that's going to diminish any credibility.

But really - the majority in here are conveying a similar experience that you claim isn't accurate. I've been running adc since I started, and while I've never been amazing at it, I've had my pentas and all that jazz. I would think maybe the competition has simply gotten better as I have over time, but that wouldn't account for the fact that in most games where someone snowballs, it's not the adc doing the heavy lifting anymore.


Incorrect way to read my post. "Before I touch mobility - you're contradicting yourself here." What I am ayin here is that ranged ADC is designed to have said advantage of being able to go squish while attackin from a safe distance. Melee can not do this. I have also pointed out that while this is an advantage that ranged has over melee, other then this SOLE difference you can play a ranged ADC exactly like a melee ADC, at which point there is no reason to choose one over the other because they are so identical. The minor differences that do exists appear in champs such as Xin Zhao who has built in survivability steroids/tankyness from his ult, etc.

If you are refering to engaging then that is an absurd point to make. Know why many ranged ADC don't have dashes to their target? Because they don't want to be that close. Instead they can engage without moving... due to their being... ranged. They don't need the dash. This is why Red Buff was nerfed for ranged ADC, etc.

Yeah, I didn't do so hot as Graves, but it wasn't because of Trist alone. My team fed Xin Zhao 5/0/1 in the first 12 minutes and then he started camping bot along with their Lux, Trist, and Leblanc. Our Annie was running aroudn with her head cut off and Olaf never came bottom even once because he was helping Nid who was barely managing in her lane after Xin's fun time top and mid leaving it to be 2v4. Gee... wonder why I went from winning my lane to massively losing it and the game. Great arguement, tho. Perhaps you will be better informed next time instead of basing someone's skill off a single game.

Laning doesn't matter. huh... then you point to that game and I can point to my above statement instantly rendering your entire point moot. You also choose to misuse my words. I said laning doesn't matter in the context of bruisers as this thread is being discussed. You are the one who chose to get off topic and talk about ADC in every aspect including bot ADC + Support vs ADC + Support lane with complete exclusion to the topic at hand... HP stacking.

No you can't... what you are trying to say is absurdly biased. You are trying to make a point that if ADC has even one weak point in the game they are vastly underpowered while ignoring that they were designed to be weaker and scale up towards late game to become a beast power house. Naturally health stacking is a problem mid game which makes them even weaker then they already were mid game. This is a point I have repeatedly stated. Late game they are less tanky this season then last seasons so ADC kill them faster due to massive armor nerfs and how HP and effective HP works.

Gtg finish post later.


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SeCKS Egai

Senior Member

02-21-2013

Quote:
Xengre:
Incorrect way to read my post. "Before I touch mobility - you're contradicting yourself here." What I am ayin here is that ranged ADC is designed to have said advantage of being able to go squish while attackin from a safe distance. Melee can not do this. I have also pointed out that while this is an advantage that ranged has over melee, other then this SOLE difference you can play a ranged ADC exactly like a melee ADC, at which point there is no reason to choose one over the other because they are so identical. The minor differences that do exists appear in champs such as Xin Zhao who has built in survivability steroids/tankyness from his ult, etc.


Everyone has an autoattack. Everyone can be played as "adc". You still play melee and ranged different regardless. Melee would probably see more action, but in team comps, melee is too vulnerable as bot with support, and throwing them in the jungle or top means you're going to need to fit something tanky or beefy elsewhere or likely get run over during team fights.

Quote:
Xengre:

If you are refering to engaging then that is an absurd point to make. Know why many ranged ADC don't have dashes to their target? Because they don't want to be that close. Instead they can engage without moving... due to their being... ranged. They don't need the dash. This is why Red Buff was nerfed for ranged ADC, etc.



Of course ranged don't want to be that close. The whole point of this thread has been that range isn't the advantage it used to be. Then you make comparisons to melee and wonder why several people have disagreed with you already.

Quote:
Xengre:

Yeah, I didn't do so hot as Graves, but it wasn't because of Trist alone. My team fed Xin Zhao 5/0/1 in the first 12 minutes and then he started camping bot along with their Lux, Trist, and Leblanc. Our Annie was running aroudn with her head cut off and Olaf never came bottom even once because he was helping Nid who was barely managing in her lane after Xin's fun time top and mid leaving it to be 2v4. Gee... wonder why I went from winning my lane to massively losing it and the game. Great arguement, tho. Perhaps you will be better informed next time instead of basing someone's skill off a single game.

Laning doesn't matter. huh... then you point to that game and I can point to my above statement instantly rendering your entire point moot. You also choose to misuse my words. I said laning doesn't matter in the context of bruisers as this thread is being discussed. You are the one who chose to get off topic and talk about ADC in every aspect including bot ADC + Support vs ADC + Support lane with complete exclusion to the topic at hand... HP stacking.


I wasn't saying you were horrible or basing your skill off one game. I was pointing out your arguments of survivability don't apply which obviously you proved correct in that experience. If you kill something before they kill you, get fed, get a huge lead, sure. But the typical adc isn't going to be able to afford all of that - a lot more games are decided by the laning phase. As you blame your teammates completely for that loss, (instead of just acknowledging they got outplayed) it's no wonder you're unwilling to look at what we've been talking about.

Us regular ranged adc folk know how the laning phase makes all the difference. Bad laning phase and you're going to be too behind to do much. Your above statement sounds like a lot of blame on everyone but yourself. But regardless, not only were you having trouble surviving, you were much farther behind - exactly a point people have been trying to make - so let me bold it out

Unless an adc is well ahead of the enemy team, they no longer represent a major threat. However, as they're a relatively easy kill, can often feel more like a liability.

This is what you aren't getting. Which is why you think I'm off topic when in reality I'm hitting the nail on the head.

Quote:
Xengre:

No you can't... what you are trying to say is absurdly biased. You are trying to make a point that if ADC has even one weak point in the game they are vastly underpowered while ignoring that they were designed to be weaker and scale up towards late game to become a beast power house. Naturally health stacking is a problem mid game which makes them even weaker then they already were mid game. This is a point I have repeatedly stated. Late game they are less tanky this season then last seasons so ADC kill them faster due to massive armor nerfs and how HP and effective HP works.

Gtg finish post later.


Most adcs late game feel relatively weak. I dunno how you have been missing the folks saying that. Only 2 adcs scale beautifully for late game, and that's kog and vayne because of their respective kits and bonus damage output based on max health. But they also have the weakest laning phases of the adcs. Most adcs will zone or outperform them early and mid - and most likely decide the game before you hit late game status.

With that said, you can't say that adcs scale for late - most really don't. You can't just assume until late game the carry's performance isn't relevant.

Late game you're saying adcs kill folks faster because they have less survivability.

Late game we're saying it doesn't matter because the adc is so vulnerable they're more likely to be smashed or burst down to make that difference. You don't kill them fast enough . Wait too long as an adc to enter a fight and its over before it began.


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Tinithor

Senior Member

02-21-2013

ADC's are still important. its just their job to kill the Tanks that are diving them now so it takes a lot longer to kill people than it did before. Without their damage those tanks would NEVER die so its still very important to have them on your team.