Thronmail useless

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Faptain Teemo

Member

02-19-2013

@dray, that'd be too much. That enables people to do their skills' base damages on top of having the enemy hurt themselves.

So far on the PBE, Thornmail has been a good counter to the new BotRK that people are rushing. Armor is back!


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IamDuddits

Senior Member

02-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by draydurmil View Post
why doesnt it return spell dmg? even physical spells, thornmail is useless on enemy pantheon with bc, spaming his q and e and u just lose armor and pantheon takes no damage return. so it is useless against ad casters and only effective on ad carries?
This too. LoL isn't DotA. There aren't really any "right-click" carries. And to be frank, the few right-clickers that exist are better countered by AD assassins, Bruisers, and Tanky dps focus. This game is way too heavily dependent on ability based damage for an item like this to be realistically viable.

The irony is that the only heroes that would ever be able to use this item effectively to counter ADCs are already fully capable of killing them without it.


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Slash7

Senior Member

02-19-2013

thornmail should be taken late game
early game isnt that usefull
i think you would need mgc pen for better results

in order to counter thornmail adc needs lifesteal and mgc resist
like malmortius and king, bloodthirster

thorn helps late game but not really early game
and i think that the armor it provides would be enough as only armor item

as tank basically prefer to take firecape early cause gives hp and armor
then some mgc resist and then thornmail if needed

i remember i build thornmail on tank yi after frozen mallet
it helped me big time against adcs


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Ballzofire

Senior Member

02-19-2013

Base mr is not an accurate calcualtion. Esp since every team seems to build 1-2 runic bulwarks. Assuming u take a ga for ur def item. Base mr is avg 30ish. 30 more from 1 bulwark. Ga is 30 more. That 90mr with no runes or buffs from any other champ. You get 12 more from flat blue mr runes. 24 from mr/lv runes. This now puts you at 102-114mr. This damage becomes easily heal able through lifesteal. Thronmail itself also make you LW worth using. Since base shred is better until the champion has over 100 armor. Noob traps op!


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UnFeedable

Senior Member

02-19-2013

Wow, I forgot Thornmail existed. I have not seen Thornmail since the first pre-season changes. Armor is an undervalued stat nowadays, as armor pen. is so easy to get and abuse. If had to choose an effective armor item, it'd be frozen heart... It's more costly, but more effective in my opinion.


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Grakor

Member

02-19-2013

Wouldn't it still be useful for those with abilities that force others to auto-attack them? I take this on Galio still since it's a nice buff to his ultimate.


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IamDuddits

Senior Member

02-19-2013

Armor Penetration/Reduction should not be % based. From a design stand points its awful because it make armor completely cost ineffective whether you are stacking it or not. It's never a bad item to get. Unfortunately, they rely on these items to keep armor in check. Diminishing returns don't really kick in until 180+ armor and there simply aren't enough flat penetration/reduction options to lower this without LW/TBC.

Something I'd like to see is negative armor values being possible through armor reduction in the itemization. Unfortunately this game needs such an enormous overhaul in terms of armor/MR and penetration/reductions for this to be possible.

They need to figure out a way to make armor stacking counterable without making it useless in the process. I expectations are very low.


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awkwardbowman

Senior Member

02-19-2013

There are few enough people that have that ability. Rammus, Shen, and galio only I believe. Galio's an AP champ that has little reason to build armor let alone a thornmail. Shen does an AoE taunt that works for 1.5 second but is hard enough to land on an ADC in a team fight. Rammus has a point and click taunt that works well enough, and he scales off armor. Hence why I mentioned before he's the only person I still SOMETIMES build thornmail on.


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ExcitableOyster

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Senior Member

02-19-2013

I don't think there's anything wrong with thornmail honestly. Frozen Heart is overall better, but it costs more gold, and you don't need it except on one person for the aura.

Ideally, if your team is being destroyed by lots of AD (maybe 1 or 2 ad people got fed) then you get one person, usually the tank, to build frozen heart, and everyone else builds thornmail. Why? Frozen Heart's aura only needs to be provided by one person, and Thornmail is cheaper to build while providing more armor.


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67chrome

Senior Member

02-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slash7 View Post
thornmail should be taken late game
early game isnt that usefull
i think you would need mgc pen for better results

in order to counter thornmail adc needs lifesteal and mgc resist
like malmortius and king, bloodthirster

thorn helps late game but not really early game
and i think that the armor it provides would be enough as only armor item

as tank basically prefer to take firecape early cause gives hp and armor
then some mgc resist and then thornmail if needed

i remember i build thornmail on tank yi after frozen mallet
it helped me big time against adcs
No, it's the opposite. Late game auto-attackers tend to actually have the armor penetration, life steal, and magic resistance to deal with thornmail. Last Whisper, The Bloodthirster, and some level of Magic Resistance from things like auras, mercury treads, or guardian angel will generally nullfiy the returned damage. Thornmail is an item for winning duels, which is something you tend to stop doing when team-fights are a thing. It helps tremendously in duels against auto-attackers, and helps to prevent them from reaching late-game builds.

If you pick it up in the lanning phase you're pretty much invulnerable against any Attack Damage Carry, whether they're melee or ranged. Which is generally pretty effective top-lane against the 4 melee carries, as they're reliant on farm (being carries), but you're free to push them out of lane without much to worry about in terms of retaliation. Armor also helps you tower-dive, so fun stuff there. Not to mention you reflect those critically striking Parrrleys and every hit from Blade Waltz back to Gangplank and Fiora with it.

Whenever I play Fiora in Dominion that's how it works though - if I'm stuck bottom lane and my opponent rushes a Thornmail I'm more or less forced to switch with someone top lane. If the enemy squish decides to rush a Thornmail I can't kill them before they reach a safe spot or allies. If someone picks up Thornmail in the final stages of the game when I'm at full build (for Dominion, which is like 2 big items, boots, and a random assortment of components) then it doesn't help them much - and I can proceed to win 1v2s at that point.

Thornmail was removed from the faster-paced Twisted Treelines, and I'm guessing it's largely because of how much of the game is based on early fights with less items (and unlike Dominion you can't really avoid anyone in Twisted Treelines, what with only 3 players on each team). Most of the ranged attack damage carries were unplayable in there if anyone picked up a thornmail.