Junglers are still starved for gold! :/ (long)

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Warm Gun

Senior Member

02-18-2013

-With the new changes to the Jungle, and the removal of Heart of Gold, the lack of Jungler gold is at an all time low.

-The initial clear from a Jungler gives him just enough gold to buy his items necessary to continue clearing the jungle, and a few pots and wards; This makes perfect sense, and I have no issue with this.

-The Jungle was adjusted to give increased gold gains as the game goes on.
& This makes sense in theory.

-Since I'm going to assume Rioters don't have time to read my entire post, I am suggesting to you that you grant a passive gold gain on monster kills to the Smite mastery, starting @ 1 and continuing to scale up as the game goes on. Or, Just add an additional 1-2gp10 when you take smite.

-Another possible solution: What if Avarice blade just gave AD instead of Crit, and Atma's gave bonus AD in addition to the passive. The only problem with Avarice is that Crit is almost useless on a bruiser. Avarice could even build into an upgraded version of wriggles that gives 10 extra AD and maybe 10 extra armor, and grants 1 extra ward, for a combine cost of like 850-950.

But since a Jungler generally builds very tanky, they
lose the ability to clear minions quickly as the game goes on, so the extra
gold gain has much less of an impact as you would initially think

The strongest Junglers in the current meta game are the ones with the highest base damage, this allows them to clear the jungle in the early levels and get the items they need to support their team.

-Now, to get to the issue at hand, Junglers generally don't have time to farm the jungle more than once or twice in the early stages of the game, since they need to be ganking or helping their lanes. This can cause a Jungler to begin to fall behind which in turn makes him clear the jungle slower later on and continues to snowball him into support status,

-The fact is, in most games that I play, unless the Jungler takes CS from his lanes, a support will have as much, or more gold as the Jungler, simply because of Gp10 runes, items, and pickpocket.

-To me this seems like something that was not intended to be part of the game
^One could bring up Arvice blade, having been recently buffed, as a way to address the problem. But, the fact is, if a jungler invests money into Arvice blade, he is far to weak early on to have an impact on the game, early on.

-I feel like avarice blades' passive should be shifted to the smite mastery (only applying to jungle creeps), and should increase as the game goes on. This way, you wont see Junglers getting absurd items early on just by farming, but they will stay close to the curb in comparison to other lanes as the game goes on.

-If a Jungler is doing his job protecting his team by warding and staying near lanes, he will be starved of gold and there is really no way of avoiding that without running gp10 runes.

-In almost %80-90 of games I play that go longer than 30 minutes, the support has more gold than the jungler, just because of Philo stone pick pocket and Gp10 runes/masteries.

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VicariousxD

Senior Member

02-18-2013

I almost said I main jungle and don't have much of an issue with gold, but then I remembered some of THOSE games.

A great portion of my gold as the Jungler comes from ganking and securing assists and kills. However, some of the time (a lot* of the time) I get teams that just constantly push every single lane all the way never giving ganking opportunities. A lot of the time they get ganked and die then ask me for help and I tell them to stop pushing the lane to gank and they actually do it, but when they dont (6 or 7 times out of 10), I get no ganking oppurtunities.

Games like that, where I can not gank, I usually see myself falling behind rather quickly in gold and levels. I just constantly farm my jungle and counter jungle so I can influence the game somewhat still (and hold lanes when they have to recall gives me a little gold/exp too usually). However, there is always a level and gold deficit to the Jungler in games like this.

I am not certain that is an issue with the jungle so much as team competence though. You decide


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Voidgolem

Senior Member

02-18-2013

I still feel that straight-jungling (read: teammates are all humping enemy towers about 90% of the game) should give gold/exp at least on par with the duo lane, if not the solo.

Problem is how do you balance that across all the potential jungle champions and other people taking camps.


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Shuix

Senior Member

02-18-2013

I agree, I see this all too often. The main two roles I play are Jungle and Support and 9/10 times the support will have 1-2k (if not more) gold then the jungler unless you had a HUGE impact on the game which generally doesn't happen. You gank once or twice and if it's successful you don't need to come back...

That being said once you hit mid game you need to gank 24/7 as you only have 1-2 camps to clear if you're lucky.

Blue usually goes to the mid around 7 minutes.
Red will be picked up by the ADC 9/10 times around 20 minutes.
Middle will take Wraiths when ever possible to get them ahead in CS.
Top/Bot will also take golems when ever possible to get them ahead.

So really that only leaves you with wolves/golems/wraiths to clear... That's 9 CS every minute so unless you gank every lane (which is not always possible due to push/wards) you are starved of gold. The only way around this is to build GP10(some champs it works better then others on).

For example, Udyr usually gets a Philo stone after his first1-2 clears and still has Machete. I do the same with Skarner, Mao and Naut as well. So unless your jungler can use a Shurelias(sorry for spelling) in their build mid/late game there is really no point getting it.

Some of the AP junglers now have the choice to get a Kages since it builds into WotA now, but for the junglers like Mundo/Shyvana/Lee Sin there is no gp10 for them since HoG was removed, Even though all 3 of those have fairly fast clear speed, There is still a 50(+/- 10s) second window of where you have no creeps to farm in the jungle.


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Shuix

Senior Member

02-18-2013

10 minutes since the last post, Really interested to see what other people have to say about the matter.


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Warm Gun

Senior Member

02-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuix View Post
There is still a 50(+/- 10s) second window of where you have no creeps to farm in the jungle.
The issue is not that you don't have creeps to farm. It's that the time it takes to farm them later in the game is so long, that it allows the other team to easily take objectives once the lane phase has ended, so the extra gold gain as time goes on is irrelevant.


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EvilTreeSpock

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Senior Member

02-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuix View Post
Some of the AP junglers now have the choice to get a Kages since it builds into WotA now, but for the junglers like Mundo/Shyvana/Lee Sin there is no gp10 for them since HoG was removed, Even though all 3 of those have fairly fast clear speed, There is still a 50(+/- 10s) second window of where you have no creeps to farm in the jungle.

Avarice Blade. It builds into some decent items and if you're a fast clearing jungler you get more gold than a philos or a Pick.

I also almost always buy a Philos on my mana junglers if only for that early hp/mana sustain without blue and for some extra gold, even if I don't end up getting a Shurelia's. Since I don't usually finish my build anyways, I get the most out of the gold passive.


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Shuix

Senior Member

02-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Sgt Pepper View Post
The issue is not that you don't have creeps to farm. It's that the time it takes to farm them later in the game is so long, that it allows the other team to easily take objectives once the lane phase has ended, so the extra gold gain as time goes on is irrelevant.

I agree, Most of the time when it gets to mid/late game you are sending more time on camps then you should (obviously) and that is putting you behind. The only way to counter this is to build high damage early(or even rush a wriggles) to help you clear faster but then that puts you behind mid game when there is no one on your team that is tanky.

What a lot of junglers are doing(my self included) is that they will rush a Sunfire cape as the 40 damage p/s around you will help you clear a lot faster and make you tankier and you don't lose a lot of damage which is a bonus.


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Daedelous

Senior Member

02-18-2013

Funny Story: Laners get mad if you kill their enemy laners during a gank.


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Shuix

Senior Member

02-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilTreeSpock View Post
Avarice Blade. It builds into some decent items and if you're a fast clearing jungler you get more gold than a philos or a Pick.

I also almost always buy a Philos on my mana junglers if only for that early hp/mana sustain without blue and for some extra gold, even if I don't end up getting a Shurelia's. Since I don't usually finish my build anyways, I get the most out of the gold passive.
The only usefull items I can see being built of an Avarice blade is the Shiv, But on the junglers I mentioned I feel it's kind of a waste of money and an item slot.

Unless you are clearing really quickly and farming lanes quite often you won't make the gold back fast enough for it to matter.

As OP said if you go for an Avarice blade early then you don't has as much impact on the game early


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