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@Volty @IronStylus My humble Quinn tweak thoughts, if you would please visit & reply

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TenshiNoMaou

Senior Member

02-18-2013

@Eyrgos I like all your responses and have to say I agree with your point on quinn currently with the q short duration and e working how it is a lot of ppl can easily outplay once they get used to her.About the attack range I also agree with it sorta not meshing with her q and e I was thinking that quinn should get her own range like varus did what range I'm not exactly sure*lol*but I feel discussing her we can maybe figure it out.


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Eyrgos

Senior Member

02-18-2013

Quote:
KamijouTouma00:
@Eyrgos I like all your responses and have to say I agree with your point on quinn currently with the q short duration and e working how it is a lot of ppl can easily outplay once they get used to her.About the attack range I also agree with it sorta not meshing with her q and e I was thinking that quinn should get her own range like varus did what range I'm not exactly sure*lol*but I feel discussing her we can maybe figure it out.


You mean like his Q arrow? Or just his basic attack range? Keep explaining, perhaps with more solution-crafting, I'm curious.


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Wards win games

Senior Member

02-18-2013

Quote:
Eyrgos:
1. Harrier target selection and frequency

Quote:
Quinn's AA is pretty weak early-game, I feel like even with full AD & creep-kill masteries she has trouble last hitting compared to most ADC's- Harrier target selection (the animation) could be a tad quicker and the creep-target choice happen closer to creep-death (5%-10% closer IMO).


AA base without runes or masteries is 48 +3 per level, similar to all other AD's except maybe graves, who starts around 51 (And is a high burst ADC). Add her harrier into the mix, and the only person who last hits easier IMO is draven with a charged Q

[QUOTE]
2. Burst potential during Tag Team

Burst during Tag Team is fine, one thing I'd like to see is a CD refresh for Q+W+E when you R, it ruins the "opportune moment" to jump in & strike if you've just Q'd & then a team fight breaks and now you're stuck without for Valor Form...


Because the effects are similar; this would make quinn game breakingly OP in my opinion. An instant double cast blind at any point would not make for good counterplay. I can understand resetting the E, but again valor is already so good at chasing fleeing targets, it's just an unnecessary bonus, but the Q needs to remain as is otherwise her 1v1 potential will be off the charts.

Quote:
Single-target burst or tower burst is too good IMO: lvl 11 with fair AD, pop R & watch the towers melt, that AS steroid too powerful.


Mid game it's on par with any other AS nuke in the game. References are Graves, Ezreal Passive. If anything the late game rank 4-5 could be slightly toned down, but again she only receives this benefit for the 25 seconds valor is on the field, as opposed to graves or ezreals POTENTIAL permanent uptime.


Quote:
4. Did you successfully use Vault to escape over a wall?

Yeah I have, I feel like it should go a little bit further, it's very difficult to pull off if you don't have all the time in the world (intense situation, nigh impossible, esp if something interacts with the creeps you want to vault over like enemy aoe)... with above proposed change (+25 Attack Range), Vault range could also improve +25, effectively solving this.

The goal was to make vaulting over walls very difficult. She already has forced repositioning and an ultimate that SCREAMS "Haha, you can't catch me, or get away from me". IMO increasing the range would make her near unstoppable if you got caught in a skirmish in the jungle.

IMO increasing her AA range isn't an option; her on demand repositioning tool is so core to her kit; and the lower range allows for AMAZING counter play from an enemy lane.
Remember, balance isn't "nothing can touch me", balance is "There are ways to manipulate my play to gain an advantage, if you are better than me". Increasing her base AA range would give her E too much utility, and would essentially be a garuntee'd escape at any given point.

With all that said; I do not work in design or for Riot, so many may disagree with my analyses. I typically hate comparing champion to champion, but for AD roles it's a pretty safe method of determining viability.

Thanks for the feedback! I may not particularly agree with most of it; but none-the-less it's invaluable to the environment, as Riot does check every post here (Even if they don't have the time to comment on each).


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TenshiNoMaou

Senior Member

02-18-2013

Quote:
Eyrgos:
You mean like his Q arrow? Or just his basic attack range? Keep explaining, perhaps with more solution-crafting, I'm curious.



Sry I meant quinn should get a new auto attack range like varus did


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Lux Eternus

Senior Member

02-18-2013

Quote:
XenGaming:
Increasing her base AA range would give her E too much utility, and would essentially be a garuntee'd escape at any given point.

With all that said; I do not work in design or for Riot, so many may disagree with my analyses. I typically hate comparing champion to champion, but for AD roles it's a pretty safe method of determining viability.


How would a +25 range give her more utility?

Her 'e' jumps her about 500 units back. In the same direction.

Those are two things i recommend changing. Controlling the direction of the jump, and increasing the range by 25, even if some other things have to be nerfed b/c of it.

edit: get rid of % dmg on ult, make her ult instant castable (for burst)


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Draaaaaaavén

Senior Member

02-18-2013

I dislike that the mark isn't consumed if a target is chosen during your auto animation.


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Eyrgos

Senior Member

02-18-2013

Quote:
XenGaming:

1) AA base without runes or masteries is 48 +3 per level, similar to all other AD's except maybe graves, who starts around 51 (And is a high burst ADC). Add her harrier into the mix, and the only person who last hits easier IMO is draven with a charged Q

2) Because the effects are similar; this would make quinn game breakingly OP in my opinion. An instant double cast blind at any point would not make for good counterplay. I can understand resetting the E, but again valor is already so good at chasing fleeing targets, it's just an unnecessary bonus, but the Q needs to remain as is otherwise her 1v1 potential will be off the charts.

3) Mid game it's on par with any other AS nuke in the game. References are Graves, Ezreal Passive. If anything the late game rank 4-5 could be slightly toned down, but again she only receives this benefit for the 25 seconds valor is on the field, as opposed to graves or ezreals POTENTIAL permanent uptime.

4) The goal was to make vaulting over walls very difficult. She already has forced repositioning and an ultimate that SCREAMS "Haha, you can't catch me, or get away from me". IMO increasing the range would make her near unstoppable if you got caught in a skirmish in the jungle.

5) IMO increasing her AA range isn't an option; her on demand repositioning tool is so core to her kit; and the lower range allows for AMAZING counter play from an enemy lane.

6) Remember, balance isn't "nothing can touch me", balance is "There are ways to manipulate my play to gain an advantage, if you are better than me". Increasing her base AA range would give her E too much utility, and would essentially be a guaranteed escape at any given point.


Hi Xen, I appreciate you stopping by- I have a few responses I’d like you to see & promote further healthy discussion on these things:

1) I know her base AD & scaling, but for whatever reason it’s significantly harder to last hit with her (perhaps it’s not weaker, perhaps it’s base attack-speed or windup animation?)… and the harrier usually falls at an awkward time on a creep (like 50% health, even when not strongly focusing), that it actually makes last hitting worse unless you’re letting it fall off & then last-hitting like normal, and then it just becomes wasted/fluffy. Maybe there’s an internal statistical error or something- I play practically nothing but ADC’s & it’s a chore last hitting with her until level 4 or higher.

2) If you’re instantaneously double-casting blind, the effect would be a wash (duration overlap, you’d probably get an additional 0.5 seconds)… maybe the burst would be too high & that’s something to examine, but given the other proposed changes to Tag Team/Valor Form, the burstiness of double-popping Q’s or E’s could be nullified (gotta’ look at big picture proposal as well as the fact her AD scaling is already so poor regardless). But I hear you on this one, perhaps just an E reset, but one slow or minor cc and your ult is completely wasted… you have to factor in your ulti isn’t always up, the opportune time may not come when you have literally just cast your Q+E prior to R’ing and ulterior changes could/should be made to get it proper; also if you look at a few of my other points (like trading with Q+E against any other ADC practically), you’ll realize her 1v1 is actually pretty terrible even given the blind.

3) I’m talking 80% in Valor Form instant with a miniscule amount of AD will wreck a tower in a near-instant, perhaps you should try this for yourself before saying it’s comparable because it certainly isn’t. And your last reason about the up-time should indicate she deserves better in general, imo.

4) I understand “very difficult”, but it’s too very difficult—and what’s the harm of letting her escape, Ezreal Graves & numerous others do it without having to be tricky or calling for the perfect scenario. Also, one slow on Valor Form and you do get away from her, quite easily in fact—then you have to consider that everything costs a boatload of mana on top of that. Or factor in that the whole enemy team will be coming after you quickly if you overextend in Valor Form, so there’s a massive trade-off and majority of the time it means your life to spend the Tag Team duration chasing after a victim, wasting your entire mana pool + assets in the process.

5) Fair enough on the AA range, for that I think it’s a necessity E speed is increased and/or quarter-positioning (90deg.) be made available.

6) I feel like you’re consistently forgetting that CC shuts her down more than most champions, and her blind does little even to most ADC’s or the rest of the cast (like how I mentioned practically every ADC skill punishing her Q+E combo worse than she could do to them in a prior post). And for that, I also don’t think a 25 flat attack range increase would make it that “nothing can touch me”, but that’s just my opinion. And finally, a minor range increase would not make her Vault a guaranteed escape, essentially or otherwise, it’s so hard to sweet spot even as is- add in combat to that & creeps moving because an aoe tapped them and it’s nigh-impossible.


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Eyrgos

Senior Member

02-18-2013

Quote:
Draaaaaaavén:
I dislike that the mark isn't consumed if a target is chosen during your auto animation.


Right there with you bud, or at least speed up the marking animation by 50% or so, so if it's landing right when your bolt is firing there's a high chance it'd be consumed.


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Eyrgos

Senior Member

02-18-2013

Quote:
Pathogen:
How would a +25 range give her more utility?

Her 'e' jumps her about 500 units back. In the same direction.

Those are two things i recommend changing. Controlling the direction of the jump, and increasing the range by 25, even if some other things have to be nerfed b/c of it.

edit: get rid of % dmg on ult, make her ult instant castable (for burst)


A lot of people seem to want this ultimate change, they want to trade in the % damage for more flat burst or more added elsewhere, and I agree.

Also, I'm totally with you man about 25 range, a lot of people want this too... I'd gladly let something else be nerfed in its place, even if it were that %damage on the ult for it!


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Eyrgos

Senior Member

02-18-2013

Quote:
KamijouTouma00:
Sry I meant quinn should get a new auto attack range like varus did

Gotcha', this' why I'm in favor of +25, even if it means nerfing something elsewhere- she's too punished by too many others. A poke lane ADC with low-range is cool & all, but it's lack of range needs to be made up for proper, and as it is- her Q+E+R don't do it, period. Especially given her R makes her into melee, no matter how you swing it.