@CertainlyT I give up on Zed

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blitz4

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Senior Member

02-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
Unfortunately, this thread contains so much hyperbole that it is difficult for me to find anything to respond to. If you would like to have a rational discussion about Zed, I'm up for it, but please avoid statements like "If one enemy has QSS, Zed is useless" (there are other targets and you can wait until QSS is down -- it's called counterplay) or "I can't damage a person who starts cloth 5" (you yourself can open all consumables + ward and are manaless).

Since I'm not going to go into a detailed response here, I can give you a few pieces of context from my end:

*Zed's winrate (like most assassins) goes up with game length -- the longer the game, the more impactful he becomes;

*LoLKing data is highly inaccurate -- it's a fun site, but please do not quote it as evidence for Zed's power level (in either direction, it's entirely possible for a champion to show at 53% on LoLKing and be fine or weak);

*Zed has a very high mastery cap, perhaps the highest of any champion in our roster. It's easy to become frustrated if you play Zed and do not always see the success you do with other champions. If that is your personality type, you probably shouldn't play Zed. He is designed for a player that is interested in learning new strategies even on game 100, even if that means leaving a majority of fights thinking "I could have played that better;"

*We are at a pretty tanky point in the meta at the moment. There are a lot of times in draft where I look at the enemy team and think "this is not a good game for me to play Zed." To my eye, this isn't a bad thing. All champions, and assassins in particular, will fluctuate in success rate as the meta turns. One could argue that Zed's current level of success in a heavily defensive meta is probably a sign that he is over-tuned. I am more inclined to think that Live Design got his sustained damage values about right prior to release, but your interpretation may vary.

*The PBE re-distribution of power from Zed's E to Q is an attempt to make the choice between what to rank first (Q or E) and second (W or the other of QE) more meaningful. Flexibility is a form of power, in that it gives the player greater ability to adapt to their opponent's strategy. It's far from final, but I think the change is directionally sound, even if the numbers aren't quite tuned yet. For reference, a large number of our Live designers play Zed proficiently -- JHa, SmashGizmo, Scarizard (to the extent he can be called proficient at LoL), and RiotMilkCow -- so we are in good hands.
Well, to be fair, it's not simply QSS...Anything that'll prevent the mark from activating after four seconds should work...So, at the very least, Zhonya's Hourglass should be thrown in there as well. This basically means all high priority targets have a clear build path in order to counter Zed as an assassin, which automatically makes him much more outclassed by other assassins.

Also, this tanky meta is completely Riot's fault. Seriously, you guys at Riot should have really playtested these items more to see the effects they would have on this game. How many weeks has it been since the Season 3 changes took place, why are we still constantly having to deal with these inconsistencies from our items? The amount of time this is taking to get a good balance, in hindsight, is something I feel wasn't even worth the trouble...I mean, though Season 2 had it's problems I feel it was much more balanced than this season in terms of, at the very least, it's items. That entire argument should honestly be flown right out the window. Riot caused this tanky meta, so Riot should honestly either fix it or compensate Zed for it. (Though, from experience, I know you guys won't do this for Zed or any hero...)

I agree that LolKing Data is inaccurate, but the fact that you guys never release your own statistics, such as winrates, does nothing to create a solution.

This thread is full of Hyperbole, yes. However, it's also full of frustration. I can't help but ponder at the origin of this frustration?

Oh yeah, it's from the fact that you, when designing this hero, have essentially been showing us this awesome idea but purposely left gaping holes in his kit for us to scratch at. Seriously, what the hell where you thinking making Zed an Energy Hero that has an identity crisis being either an AD Caster or an Assassin...You'd think that we'd have learned from Lee Sin, no? You made Zed into something of a swiss army knife, yet unlike Lee, this army knife is quite dull in everything that it does.

It's a shame, really. You made an aesthetically awesome hero that, even though the kit is flawed, I can't give up on. Quite the dilemma, really. Ninjas are simply too valuable of a commodity to simply give up due to a mere thing like balance...I played Shen for four hundred or so normal games, and most of those where when he was considered "Trash Tier" (Though I really know that he wasn't, it doesn't change that fact.)

I apologize in advance if my agressive tone does not leave the best of impressions, but in at least this case, I feel it's justified considering I'm a customer who purchased the Zed package day one with RP.


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MTaur

Senior Member

02-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zer0blizzard View Post
We have no stats with which to form couterarguments. If LOLKing (and probably ELOBuff and EVERY third party stat site) is not admissible in the Riot court of law for arguments, then the defense cannot make a case. You hold all of the data that we could analyze, but you don't release it to us. This is a stacked deck.
This, pretty much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zer0blizzard View Post
Considering this previous point, I can't believe you (and neither should anyone else) when you say that Zed's win rate increases as game length goes on. Pics or it didn't happen. Give us access to the same information you're quoting.
Even if it's true, what are we talking about exactly? Does he start winning 51% of games that last more than 70 minutes, climbing gradually to 70% at 90 minutes? Then that's hardly any recompense at all. We already have struggling late-game carries who aren't allowed to make it to late game. Tristana and Vayne say hi.

I don't doubt the data itself as much as I doubt the details and relevance of it. If he wins more in longer games, it could just be that he loses hard early, and *only* survives to late game in games where he's being carried by someone else anyway; I'm not saying this is true, but it's one of a million possible explanations, and one in which "he's good late-game" could false but his late-game win rate could be higher anyway. The cause/effect relationships can be really hard to discern from snippets like that.


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Zinwrath

Senior Member

02-18-2013

Love Zed, had a hard time with him pre season 3 changes but still managed to win 50% of the time and hold a positive k/d/a ratio. Been doing really well with him since 'little less well with the BC nerfs".

As an avid Zed player who has plays him Top, Mid, Jungle. I think (as has been pointed out). His ult is easily countered through items. Kinda like how Malz is, but heres the big difference. You gotta buy a rather expencive mr item to counter malz. Zed can also be countered by simply being cc'd, flash or any other teleport, ONTOP of the hoursglass etc, and thats all AFTER you cast it. Granted i suppose someone could run up and stun malz, but malz is usually surrounded by his team, your surrounded by theirs.


With that said, i used to play talon a lot before, not new to what you should and shouldnt do as an AD assassin. Clearly i dont charge in head first nor do I use ults when i think they can use one of these escapes. Often times i save W to immidiatly follow whoever flash's or teleports away and still pick up the kill.

Also, i dont know what people are talking about, i've laned against most any champ and done fairly well to amazing. Now i didnt have the learning curve some had, but i also came from playing primarily assassins (fizz, talon, akali, etc) straight into him so i already had the right mindset. His advantages over talon are huge in lane (imo). Mostly due to no mana cost, and long range harrass through his Q and WE combo. Plus you can often take them off gaurd by teleporting to your Shadow that they thought you were simply using for harrass.


End point. I think hes fine for how strong he is. But it can be annoying if the game goes on too long, and their ADC and APC both have zonya/qss.....but by then i usually have last whisper and black cleaver = no matter who it is, they wont have armor....so......(eyes the bruiser).


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blitz4

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Senior Member

02-18-2013

bump


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Dunkmaster TTGOz

Senior Member

02-18-2013

Buff zed plz


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YBC Baylife

Member

02-18-2013

i think zed is fine as he is now, he just takes a lot of getting used to to play him effectively


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blitz4

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Senior Member

02-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArticAudio View Post
i think zed is fine as he is now, he just takes a lot of getting used to to play him effectively

I said this to someone else as well...

Riot's nerfing Zed...So please, go ahead and join our little Pro-Zed activism group.


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Vox Burakkuhoru

Senior Member

02-18-2013

PLEASE DON'T NERF HIS E! I like to jungle o-o. Oh and live because of a slow. Increase the range on his W and allow the clone's E to deduct time on the W cooldown.


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Yma Sumac

Member

02-18-2013

Zed is too much of a clunky and buggy mess to be used properly and it's very obvious that his R was lazily designed

that is why he has to go warmogs and tanky derps faceroll


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Vox Burakkuhoru

Senior Member

02-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yma Sumac View Post
Zed is too much of a clunky and buggy mess to be used properly and it's very obvious that his R was lazily designed

that is why he has to go warmogs and tanky derps faceroll
Try to faceroll with zed. You'd be out of Energy so fast you won't even be able to do another E XD