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BotRK is too damn strong!

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IoIfaiI

Member

02-17-2013

Quote:
Pika Fox:
37/hit is fine for lane, but not really in a teamfight. Lifesteal wont do much for you without the AD to back it up. The only reason it would be decent on vayne as a first buy is because she has an inbuilt AD steroid iirc, and the AS stacks with her W. AD is something you want early on, with a little gold put aside for some lane sustain if needed (or just go bloodthirster for both).


Pika I have to agree with Noric. If you actually do some calculations, BotRK is just such a cost effective item. You get more AA dps than rushing a BT (which costs more), more lifesteal than rushing a BT, and an insane active. The only thing that BT does win over is that it has much higher AD stats which benefit your skills.


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Noric

Senior Member

02-17-2013

Quote:
IoIfaiI:
Pika I have to agree with Noric. If you actually do some calculations, BotRK is just such a cost effective item. You get more AA dps than rushing a BT (which costs more), more lifesteal than rushing a BT, and an insane active. The only thing that BT does win over is that it has much higher AD stats which benefit your skills.

I feel humorous that the only person in the thread to agree with me - is the only person that has more downvotes than me.

@Pika. Give me a level of AD, hp, AS to work off of.. and i would be happy to do more comprehensive numbers for you.


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Pika Fox

Senior Member

02-17-2013

Quote:
Noric:
Are you telling me that you want to compare the sustain of vamp scept + ie(4600 gold) to the sustain of BoRK(2700 gold)?

By the time you can afford ie scept you could have a BFS to increase your damage.. or a lot of AS to make your per hit more effective.


AD is something you want early - because AS and AD scale off of each other(and "alone" ad is more effective). It just so happens that AS scales off of 5% current hp too... so don't underestimate it.


Im saying you want early AD early because it is what everything a carry wants scales with. The ONLY reason you would want lifesteal over AD is if you need the sustain, which case youd go Vamp > IE/BT/etc.

AS multiplies all other stat enhancers and AD. Youd only rush this first if you have an on-hit, really (kog/vayne).

Ontop of that, AS may give you more lifesteal/time, but AD gives you more lifesteal/hit. Early on, AD will give you more lifesteal than AS will alone, since its easier to double than AS is.

And again.... %current HP will diminish per attack, leaving you relying on your base AD to finish off the enemy. And youre also praying the enemy has some noteable HP buys to make the damage/hit worth it.


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Pika Fox

Senior Member

02-17-2013

Quote:
Noric:
I feel humorous that the only person in the thread to agree with me - is the only person that has more downvotes than me.

@Pika. Give me a level of AD, hp, AS to work off of.. and i would be happy to do more comprehensive numbers for you.


Enemy base 1200 HP, with giants belt, ruby crystal, and 2 cloth armor. Base armor Irelia level 10, 52.

You (draven lvl 10) base ~80 AD, 1.0 AS (LoL champ info area doesnt tell you how much AS/lvl you get that i found, so im guessing)

Now remember, AD factors into your abilities as well.

Compare BT, IE, BC and BoRK. My guess is that BC will do the most damage, with IE being second.


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Noric

Senior Member

02-17-2013

Quote:
Pika Fox:
Im saying you want early AD early because it is what everything a carry wants scales with. The ONLY reason you would want lifesteal over AD is if you need the sustain, which case youd go Vamp > IE/BT/etc.

AS multiplies all other stat enhancers and AD. Youd only rush this first if you have an on-hit, really (kog/vayne).

Ontop of that, AS may give you more lifesteal/time, but AD gives you more lifesteal/hit. Early on, AD will give you more lifesteal than AS will alone, since its easier to double than AS is.

And again.... %current HP will diminish per attack, leaving you relying on your base AD to finish off the enemy. And youre also praying the enemy has some noteable HP buys to make the damage/hit worth it.


If you check the numbers i did - i was working off the assumption that the target had 1k hp(and treated it like it had 500 hp with %max). I was in a cait game a minute ago and against a 1200 hp target(golem) the proc went from about 15-50 damage(not counting the extremes because a target doesn't have 100% hp or 1% hp very long).

You say AD scales with everything an ADC wants - an ADC wants sustain,crit,AS, ad, arpen.

AS scales with all of those just like AD does. The %hp scales off of AS and ArPen. The sustain of BoRK scales off of ad as.


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IoIfaiI

Member

02-17-2013

Quote:
Noric:
I feel humorous that the only person in the thread to agree with me - is the only person that has more downvotes than me.

@Pika. Give me a level of AD, hp, AS to work off of.. and i would be happy to do more comprehensive numbers for you.


I'm a little lazy to actually grind out numbers because there are lots of factors (champ level, runes etc.) However I have tested the item out in many different situations.

Ex. The same champions just auto attacking each other, both with the same rune setup and masteries, one with BT, the other with BotRK. The champion with BotRK ends up winning with 30% hp left (that's without even using it's active!).

Then both champions get their second item and zerker greaves. Champion 1 has PD and BT and Champion 2 has BT and BotRK (I feel that BT after BotRK have the best synergy). This time Champion 2 wins with a bit over 40% (still without using active).

Finally, both champions build two chain vests and a giants belt to simulate fighting a bruiser (this test could be done a little more properly by actually fighting a target with the same items). This time the BT BotRK combinations came out with about 60% life (again active not used)

I know these tests are pretty shady, but the fact that the difference in results are so large, it's clear to see that BotRK is a very cost efficient item, that does exceptionally well in team fight as well (allows to better 1v1 that pesky Sunfire/Warmogs bruiser)


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Noric

Senior Member

02-17-2013

Quote:
Pika Fox:
Enemy base 1200 HP, with giants belt, ruby crystal, and 2 cloth armor. Base armor Irelia level 10, 52.

You (draven lvl 10) base ~80 AD, 1.0 AS (LoL champ info area doesnt tell you how much AS/lvl you get that i found, so im guessing)

Now remember, AD factors into your abilities as well.

I call BS on draven for picking the only champion that has an AD ratio on a skill that works 100% with aa's(making it an outlier). Also he is a numeric problem child for having a potentially huge dps with skills but that level is never actually maintainted.

I'll work with the numbers though.


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Pika Fox

Senior Member

02-17-2013

Quote:
Noric:
I call BS on draven for picking the only champion that has an AD ratio on a skill that works 100% with aa's(making it an outlier). Also he is a numeric problem child for having a potentially huge dps with skills but that level is never actually maintainted.

I'll work with the numbers though.


All newer AD champs have AD ratios. The only real outlier is tristana who only has AP ratios. I also updated it so that it gave more accurate things for comparison. Im also assuming no runes/masteries just because the best ones for all would probably be the same anyways.


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IoIfaiI

Member

02-17-2013

Noric if you want to further test this item with me, add me in PBE my IGN is ioifaii


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Noric

Senior Member

02-17-2013

Quote:
Pika Fox:
All newer AD champs have AD ratios. The only real outlier is tristana who only has AP ratios. I also updated it so that it gave more accurate things for comparison. Im also assuming no runes/masteries just because the best ones for all would probably be the same anyways.

Name another adc that has a skill that procs every time they AA.


Anyway I'm not here to argue that ad is better for AD ratios im here to work on dps on aas.