Mordekaiser Fail or Good for 3v3?

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KakeManz

Senior Member

02-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenithZephyr View Post
If you can't get to level 4 in 25-35 minutes, I don't know what to tell you. In this context the term "late game" refers to the common latter part of a Twisted Treeline game, not an SR game. Your story is ridiculous, cherry-picked, hyperbole. Try facts next time. No, anecdotes aren't considered facts without evidence.
This implies that morde is immediately good once he reaches level 4. NOPE. Not even true at level 6. My story is true, not a "one time thing" and not exagurated in the slightest. And well I'm sorry, I don't record every game I play, and this particular story was a game from last week so it's not even in my history any more. And well most of the "facts" in this thread are great theories, but that's all they are. I could tell you about how if you build exactly right and play perfectly you could do thousands upon thousands of dps with unlimited sustain with any champ, but would you be able to plausibly achieve it? Likely not. So until you show me several full games of morde being ULTIMATE SUPER STAR NUMBER ONE CARRY then I'm going to keep saying he's bad as **** because that's all I've run into in my experience.


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PurpleURP

Senior Member

02-18-2013

Mord is good, you just need a comp that supports him. Really I only pick mord if i have two other high cc or burst teammates. Teams like riven warwick mord work really well, WW and mord especially have great synergy with their ults.
runes: spell vamp quints, armor seals, magic pen marks, magic resist gliphs
masteries: 9/21/0 with magic pen in offense
items: start boots tome and a pot
get a dorans shield and turn tome into lucky pick first back
I usually just finish the black fire for the CDR then get a revolver, but you can get revolver after pick as well, depends on if you need the HP or not then finish sorc boots
at this point get a wooglets / abyssal / wota / rylais / morellos / void staff depending on what you need
end builds look like: sorc boots, black fire, wota, rylais, wooglets, abyssal


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ZenithZephyr

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Senior Member

02-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by KakeManz View Post
This implies that morde is immediately good once he reaches level 4. NOPE. Not even true at level 6. My story is true, not a "one time thing" and not exagurated in the slightest. And well I'm sorry, I don't record every game I play, and this particular story was a game from last week so it's not even in my history any more. And well most of the "facts" in this thread are great theories, but that's all they are. I could tell you about how if you build exactly right and play perfectly you could do thousands upon thousands of dps with unlimited sustain with any champ, but would you be able to plausibly achieve it? Likely not. So until you show me several full games of morde being ULTIMATE SUPER STAR NUMBER ONE CARRY then I'm going to keep saying he's bad as **** because that's all I've run into in my experience.
My post contained mostly facts, whereas yours contains nothing but your anectodal experiences which are worthless. You can keep saying whatever you like. I have no intention of trying to convince you. I just don't want you to confuse the poor OP and turn him off to an excellent 3's champ. In addition to all those facts I stated, my anecdotal experience with him is being a late game bomb (late in 3s, kid) who can pull you out of sticky situations and who often wins bot lanes vs other casters, despite the few weaknesses I fairly and objectively listed in my first post . Why is my anecdotal experience more relevant than yours? Because I have a gold 3s cup and you have a golem. And that's a fact as well.


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ZenithZephyr

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Senior Member

02-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by PurpleURP View Post
Mord is good, you just need a comp that supports him. Really I only pick mord if i have two other high cc or burst teammates. Teams like riven warwick mord work really well, WW and mord especially have great synergy with their ults.
runes: spell vamp quints, armor seals, magic pen marks, magic resist gliphs
masteries: 9/21/0 with magic pen in offense
items: start boots tome and a pot
get a dorans shield and turn tome into lucky pick first back
I usually just finish the black fire for the CDR then get a revolver, but you can get revolver after pick as well, depends on if you need the HP or not then finish sorc boots
at this point get a wooglets / abyssal / wota / rylais / morellos / void staff depending on what you need
end builds look like: sorc boots, black fire, wota, rylais, wooglets, abyssal
Good build, wrong order.

Start: Doran's Shield if likely facing AD, Amp Tome/pot if likely facing AP

First Item: Hextech Revolver. Kage's is temping, but it sets you too far back. The spell vamp on revolver is crucial, especially for clearing jungle camps. In other words, you gain more gold by being able to farm without going back to base then from Kage's.

Second Item: Blackfire Torch

Third and Fourth -

Doing well? Hextech Gunblade Tons of stats, and you'll be utilizing that lifesteal with the bonus AD you get from your ghost. Also gives much needed crowd control with it's active slow.
Losing hard to AD? Wooglet's Witchcap. Wooglet's also works to counter certain AP wildcard champs by dodging their ults (Katarina, Fiddle, Nunu, Karthus, etc, nobody you see very often). Pulls double duty vs Wukong, though.
Losing hard to AP? Spirit Visage Boost your spell vamp and ult, and the new buffs stats are so so sweet. 20% CDR, Health, and MR for cheap.

You definitely want to upgrade to Gunblade and Witchcap, while Spirit Visage is purely a counter-build item. If you have a second AP, you can opt for Will of the Ancients.

Fifth Item - Lichbane. Item so good late game. Post-Witchcap it's brutal.

Sixth Item - Void Staff. It only takes 72 MR for Void Staff to beat Abyssal Scepter in pen. Most mr/lvl champs with mercs/masteries/runes have around that much without any items. That being said Abyssal Scepter can work better if they have a fed glass cannon, or you have a second AP to benefit from the reduction vs Void Staff's pen. You can also make a case for Rylai's if kiting is an issue. A case can also be made for DFG vs HP stackning champs. As I said you're normally not gunna make it this far, and it's discretionary.

Hope that helps.


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Sparky859

Member

02-19-2013

I find a Rylias scepter works wonders on Morde early to mid, occasionally just after boots and a vamp scepter, if you find you need health and the enemy team has a lot of mobility(which they should on TT)


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Eloquid

Senior Member

02-19-2013

He's too good unfortunately. His late game is ****in unstopable, he wins game alone. And that's all you need since you can't actually push on this stupid map anyway until late game when respawn times are longer.


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PurpleURP

Senior Member

02-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenithZephyr View Post
Good build, wrong order.

Start: Doran's Shield if likely facing AD, Amp Tome/pot if likely facing AP

First Item: Hextech Revolver. Kage's is temping, but it sets you too far back. The spell vamp on revolver is crucial, especially for clearing jungle camps. In other words, you gain more gold by being able to farm without going back to base then from Kage's.

Second Item: Blackfire Torch

Third and Fourth -

Doing well? Hextech Gunblade Tons of stats, and you'll be utilizing that lifesteal with the bonus AD you get from your ghost. Also gives much needed crowd control with it's active slow.
Losing hard to AD? Wooglet's Witchcap. Wooglet's also works to counter certain AP wildcard champs by dodging their ults (Katarina, Fiddle, Nunu, Karthus, etc, nobody you see very often). Pulls double duty vs Wukong, though.
Losing hard to AP? Spirit Visage Boost your spell vamp and ult, and the new buffs stats are so so sweet. 20% CDR, Health, and MR for cheap.

You definitely want to upgrade to Gunblade and Witchcap, while Spirit Visage is purely a counter-build item. If you have a second AP, you can opt for Will of the Ancients.

Fifth Item - Lichbane. Item so good late game. Post-Witchcap it's brutal.

Sixth Item - Void Staff. It only takes 72 MR for Void Staff to beat Abyssal Scepter in pen. Most mr/lvl champs with mercs/masteries/runes have around that much without any items. That being said Abyssal Scepter can work better if they have a fed glass cannon, or you have a second AP to benefit from the reduction vs Void Staff's pen. You can also make a case for Rylai's if kiting is an issue. A case can also be made for DFG vs HP stackning champs. As I said you're normally not gunna make it this far, and it's discretionary.

Hope that helps.
With the vamp quints you dont have to rush the revolver. The earlier you get gp/5 items the better. Also, WOTA better than gunblade because only q scales on AD and most of the time you arent going into melee range anyway. Lichbane is better for mord with the s3 change, but again against good teams you shouldnt be going in to auto attack anyone. DFG is a good item i left out, i just dont usually get it unless they are really stacking hp as the blackfire plus the built in % hp damage from your ult usually do enough.


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KakeManz

Senior Member

02-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenithZephyr View Post
My post contained mostly facts, whereas yours contains nothing but your anectodal experiences which are worthless. You can keep saying whatever you like. I have no intention of trying to convince you. I just don't want you to confuse the poor OP and turn him off to an excellent 3's champ. In addition to all those facts I stated, my anecdotal experience with him is being a late game bomb (late in 3s, kid) who can pull you out of sticky situations and who often wins bot lanes vs other casters, despite the few weaknesses I fairly and objectively listed in my first post . Why is my anecdotal experience more relevant than yours? Because I have a gold 3s cup and you have a golem. And that's a fact as well.
Your "facts" which I decided to actually look over, is you spewing the numbers of mordes ult. That's cool, pretty impressive, what was it 42% hp? But you seem to have forgotten that morde doesn't do true damage, and if you really are such a threat MR will be built, and stacked hard if you're as good as you say you are.

Your cup is from season two, and you have no ranked stats for season three(I realize it could simply mean that it's still updating, ranked stats seem to take forever sometimes). Also no match history as morde in any ranked except season 3 where your average deaths are more than your kills and more impressively so, more than your assists, so you can't even say that you were being ksed a lot in the two games that you were morde. Quit trying to call bull**** on me when, like I implied earlier, numbers don't mean **** without some experience.


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ZenithZephyr

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Senior Member

02-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by PurpleURP View Post
With the vamp quints you dont have to rush the revolver. The earlier you get gp/5 items the better. Also, WOTA better than gunblade because only q scales on AD and most of the time you arent going into melee range anyway. Lichbane is better for mord with the s3 change, but again against good teams you shouldnt be going in to auto attack anyone. DFG is a good item i left out, i just dont usually get it unless they are really stacking hp as the blackfire plus the built in % hp damage from your ult usually do enough.
You can make a case for Wota. It's not a bad choice, and as I mentioned, it's the better call if you are with a second AP.

If you are with a two ADs, Gunblade has solid scaling on Q (165% vs one target or 200-300% in a teamfight) that benefits from magic pen, and the lifesteal works with the bonus AD you will gain from your ghost (easily 40-55 AD vs a fed AD carry).

However the biggest benefit from Gunblade is the active that gives you a crucial slow (and bonus nuke) that Mord's kit lacks. Compare the differences. These are comparitive figures, buying Gunblade instead of WoTa. Not Gunblade or WotA alone.

You spend 850 more gold.
Auto-attacks: +45 damage per hit, 10% lifesteal on 156 total AD (or more with ghost, but no armor pen)
Q: +64-117 damage depending on # of targets hit
W: -3 AoE damage over 6 ticks (-18 total)
E: -9 to -27 damage depending on # of targets hit
R: -0.6 HP% damage, -0.6% HP heal (18 damage and 18 health @ 3000 hp)
Gain: 230 damage nuke (@ 200 ap) with a 2 second, 40% slow that will continue to scale with more AP.

So as you can see aa->Q->nuke puts you way ahead in the damage race. Those numbers of course change if you factor putting that 850 towards a Blasting Wand, or if your allies benefit from WotA. In the end, it's a strategy call that's best made on a per-case basis. I personally prefer the gunblade 100% of the time if my opponent's can't make use of WotA aura.

You have to get into melee range to make the most of morde's kit. Q resets auto attack so aa into Q does considerable damage. If you're not using it you're not using Mord to his full potential.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KakeManz View Post
Your "facts" which I decided to actually look over, is you spewing the numbers of mordes ult. That's cool, pretty impressive, what was it 42% hp? But you seem to have forgotten that morde doesn't do true damage, and if you really are such a threat MR will be built, and stacked hard if you're as good as you say you are.

Your cup is from season two, and you have no ranked stats for season three(I realize it could simply mean that it's still updating, ranked stats seem to take forever sometimes). Also no match history as morde in any ranked except season 3 where your average deaths are more than your kills and more impressively so, more than your assists, so you can't even say that you were being ksed a lot in the two games that you were morde. Quit trying to call bull**** on me when, like I implied earlier, numbers don't mean **** without some experience.
The fact that you put "facts" in quotations when referring to numbers is embarrassing for you. It's understood that magic damage is effected by magic resist. I don't have to spoon feed you every little detail (well, for you I probably do). I'm assuming the OP has a basic understanding of the way damage is calculated. Jayce and Singed are likely to have very different MR. Since MR is a variable, you can only calculate Morde's raw damage.

I have one win and one loss in my match history for Morde on January 6th when I was still learning him. Again, your attempt to use small case samples for an overall statement of a character's validity is weak and useless.

Mord actually wouldn't by my main for ranked at this time (although he'd be my backup in a ban/picked case), but that doesn't mean he's overall useless as you imply out of over 100 champs. Feeble minds jump to extremes. If you had any sense of this game, you'd understand that Mord's strengths and weaknesses combined don't lead to a simple conclusion "don't pick mord." Note, at no point did I ever say Mord was OP or better than any percentage of other champs, just that he is viable and can turn a game around.

How does Sam evaluate Mord? Tier 2 AP Carry. And what is tier 2?

"Tier 2: Just under tier one, these champs are very good, common picks. You will see them banned after T1. These champions fulfill their roles well."

Does that sound like a "don't pick" tier to you? But you know more than Sam too, right?

I'm sure. down at 1300 elo, Mords make mistakes all the time and you capitalize on them, but please disclaim your Silver Tier advice with your personal bias' because it's exaggerated and wrong.


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KakeManz

Senior Member

02-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenithZephyr View Post
You can make a case for Wota. It's not a bad choice, and as I mentioned, it's the better call if you are with a second AP.

If you are with a two ADs, Gunblade has solid scaling on Q (165% vs one target or 200-300% in a teamfight) that benefits from magic pen, and the lifesteal works with the bonus AD you will gain from your ghost (easily 40-55 AD vs a fed AD carry).

However the biggest benefit from Gunblade is the active that gives you a crucial slow (and bonus nuke) that Mord's kit lacks. Compare the differences. These are comparitive figures, buying Gunblade instead of WoTa. Not Gunblade or WotA alone.

You spend 850 more gold.
Auto-attacks: +45 damage per hit, 10% lifesteal on 156 total AD (or more with ghost, but no armor pen)
Q: +64-117 damage depending on # of targets hit
W: -3 AoE damage over 6 ticks (-18 total)
E: -9 to -27 damage depending on # of targets hit
R: -0.6 HP% damage, -0.6% HP heal (18 damage and 18 health @ 3000 hp)
Gain: 230 damage nuke (@ 200 ap) with a 2 second, 40% slow that will continue to scale with more AP.

So as you can see aa->Q->nuke puts you way ahead in the damage race. Those numbers of course change if you factor putting that 850 towards a Blasting Wand, or if your allies benefit from WotA. In the end, it's a strategy call that's best made on a per-case basis. I personally prefer the gunblade 100% of the time if my opponent's can't make use of WotA aura.

You have to get into melee range to make the most of morde's kit. Q resets auto attack so aa into Q does considerable damage. If you're not using it you're not using Mord to his full potential.



The fact that you put "facts" in quotations when referring to numbers is embarrassing for you. It's understood that magic damage is effected by magic resist. I don't have to spoon feed you every little detail (well, for you I probably do). I'm assuming the OP has a basic understanding of the way damage is calculated. Jayce and Singed are likely to have very different MR. Since MR is a variable, you can only calculate Morde's raw damage.

I have one win and one loss in my match history for Morde on January 6th when I was still learning him. Again, your attempt to use small case samples for an overall statement of a character's validity is weak and useless.

Mord actually wouldn't by my main for ranked at this time (although he'd be my backup in a ban/picked case), but that doesn't mean he's overall useless as you imply out of over 100 champs. Feeble minds jump to extremes. If you had any sense of this game, you'd understand that Mord's strengths and weaknesses combined don't lead to a simple conclusion "don't pick mord." Note, at no point did I ever say Mord was OP or better than any percentage of other champs, just that he is viable and can turn a game around.

How does Sam evaluate Mord? Tier 2 AP Carry. And what is tier 2?

"Tier 2: Just under tier one, these champs are very good, common picks. You will see them banned after T1. These champions fulfill their roles well."

Does that sound like a "don't pick" tier to you? But you know more than Sam too, right?

I'm sure. down at 1300 elo, Mords make mistakes all the time and you capitalize on them, but please disclaim your Silver Tier advice with your personal bias' because it's exaggerated and wrong.
Okay I'll admit here, I blew it out of proportion. Mord is by far not the worst champ that one can pick, and not an automatic don't pick (but still should probably not be your first pick all the time). Though I'm still not sure where you get off judging me by my elo and ranking when you aren't even ranked, and just today graduated from bot games and started playing normal games. But whatever, I'm done with that.

And with the tier list, I'm sure Sam has a great understanding of things, better than myself I can very easily admit, however I'm pretty sure Sam said it himself; The placement on the tier list assumes high, if not maximum skill level. Now simply the fact that OP was asking whether Mord was a good champ or not shows that skill level is not necessarily high. In fact after checking things out, OP is only level 28 with less than 150 combined wins in SR and TT. So yeah, me saying just don't do it is bad, however feeding all these numbers and plus sides with little negative is bad too. I remember when I was at that level of play, it's a learning time, pre-30 is a time when you should be developing your own playstyle. I can tell you with all confidence that the champs that I mained way back then are definitely not the champs that I main now, not even close.

So the best advice that anyone could give to OP isn't "don't play morde" or even "morde can do so much damage, and is a late game beast, and his negatives are easy to manage", it's "Try it yourself and see what you think". Maybe OP's playstyle is simply just not fitted to morde, and that's just fine. Maybe OP rocks out loud with morde and will carry every single game, but me saying "don't do it" and putting it down in OP's head isn't good, and you saying "don't listen to this *******, morde is great" and giving OP false expectations about what is going to happen when he continuously locks in morde.

Most champs can be good in their own places (emphasize most) However it's moreso about the summoner behind the champ. I was being an *******, and perhaps shouted my point of view a bit too loudly, but you weren't any more in the right than me.


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