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@Xypherous: How to fix Warmog's without nerfing the regen to 1% because of laning...

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calicfer

Senior Member

02-26-2013

Quote:
Xypherous:
The thing about the late-game regen item is that ideally, I would like it to exclusively be a tank late-game regen item, as I think tanks without sustain are the class of characters that a late-game sustain item should support.

For example, Leona, Amumu, Nautilus etc. - These are the characters that need a heavy late-game regeneration option - not Xin Zhao, Irelia, Jax.

It may be that it might be impossible to create one without it being supplanted by bruisers - unsure - but I know that, if we created a high regen item, we'd want it to be more tailored towards true tanks like Leona / Mummy rather than Fighters.


%1hp*armor + mr /100 hp regen/5
=> hp regen scaling incredibly with tankyness.


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Scriptix

Junior Member

02-26-2013

You guys messed this game all up. Season 2 was fine the way it was. You should have focused on balancing all the broken op champs in this game.


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Fishous

Senior Member

02-26-2013

Quote:
Xypherous:
This particular idea reduces down to:

Punish players for finishing an item early - by making it so that the earlier you finish the item, the weaker this is and the more gold-inefficient it is.

To be perfectly fair, it is a path that works on certain statistics, particularly late-game statistics like % penetration - in which the disincentive is to gently guide people into realizing when the item is truly good.

However, this is a case where you are taking an item that is already not cost-efficient for raw health - punishing players that finish it early by making it even less cost-efficient thereby merely making anyone who finishes Warmog's armor before the health-break even point into an ineffective build. The problem is compounded by that fact that it is Health that you are gating so the most desirable early game statistic is not available by finishing the item - thus what is most likely going to happen is that players will merely stack Giant's Belts to get around your attempted fix.

While this will nerf the item, most definitely - it does so merely by making it a foolish option to upgrade the item until the numbers pan out. Did you buy Warmogs before level 15 to 18? Congratulations, you made a mistake. You should have bought another Giant's Belt because you have tricked players into buying an item with negative gold efficiency until you deem it to be "correct."

Players should be rewarded for finishing items that they want to buy - That is intrinsically the point of items - This change effectively "solves" rushed Warmogs by giving rushed Warmogs negative reward - punishing players who are doing well rather than solve the gameplay that a rushed Warmogs presents. Don't get me wrong, this tactic is certainly valid in some games - if you want to be really heavy handed about it - but at a certain point, you should just say "Warmog's Armor - Level Requirement: 15" and be done with it. It's a much cleaner way of accomplishing what you want innately. It's no real surprise that most RPGs do use the idea of level restrictions for this very purpose.

However, level restricting an item doesn't really fit into what we want for itemization.


Uh, isn't trying to get players to not rush it right away/make it a bad idea, kind of the whole point? If you don't want it to ever be a bad purchase, your only option is probably to give it the Innervating Locket treatment.


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Davidt1234

Senior Member

02-26-2013

omg my mind is blown o_o HOW CAN SOMEONE EVEN THINK OF THIS? SUCH A DAM GOOD IDEA U SO SMART or im stupid -.- either way i like this. its true that warmogs is way to strong early, than near late the hp regen is pretty useless since ur not really gonna be standing there waiting for ur health to regen ur just gonna go in teamfights and win or lose, live or die. making the health from warmogs scale per level makes it much weaker early game but still useful late, and at the same time have health regen that is actually useful late. right now warmogs is only nice for the hp. doing this would make health regen a more noticeable thing omg why are u so smart are u steve jobs ghost? or albert einsteins? ororor....


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DT777

Senior Member

02-26-2013

Quote:
Xypherous:
The thing about the late-game regen item is that ideally, I would like it to exclusively be a tank late-game regen item, as I think tanks without sustain are the class of characters that a late-game sustain item should support.

For example, Leona, Amumu, Nautilus etc. - These are the characters that need a heavy late-game regeneration option - not Xin Zhao, Irelia, Jax.

It may be that it might be impossible to create one without it being supplanted by bruisers - unsure - but I know that, if we created a high regen item, we'd want it to be more tailored towards true tanks like Leona / Mummy rather than Fighters.


Why not just have items then that have stat restrictions?

Like, "This item gets a bonus if your bonus AD isn't above X" or "This item gets a bonus if your Armor is at least X"


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Suda

Senior Member

02-26-2013

Quote:
Danage:
Hello all,

Xypherous (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=34712369#post34712369) recently stated...



In short, it's too powerful early game because of the large amount of health and the sustain given. There is an easy and simple solution...



What does this mean?
  • At level 1, the champion will have 660 health from Warmog's. (640 + 20x1 = 640 + 20 = 660 health)
  • At level 10, the champion will have 840 health from Warmog's. (640 + 20x10 = 640 + 200 = 840 health)
  • At level 18, the champion will have 1000 health from Warmog's (640 + 20x18 = 640 + 360 = 1000 health)

Why do this?
1. If bought early, it still gives a HUGE chunk of health, but not as much as the LIVE version.
2. Early game, there are probably more efficient items in terms of total price paid. Late game, still very efficient and cost effective
3. It still keeps the 1.5% regen passive.
4. There is little to no late game sacrifice in terms of maximum health or regen.
5. It solves the laning phase problem of being stubborn or ungankable because champion health and regen will be lower.
6. It is still possible to buy multiple Warmog's for HUGE health pools because the health gain is not UNIQUE. (Regen stays unique)

What are your thoughts??

Cheers,
Danage

EDIT: Another possible change adapted from Cronovey (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=34748449#post34748449). Change the regen such that it isn't as strong early game as well, but slightly stronger than live late game.
Unique Passive: You gain health regeneration equal to (0.1% * Level) of your maximum health every 5 seconds.

At level 1, you get 0.1% regen
At level 10, you get 1.0% regen
At level 18, you get 1.8% regen (live is currently 1.5%)

EDIT 2: Don't let this point overshadow my main post, but can we get Warmog's added to Dominion?? It was removed because of the minion passive it had in Season 2. Now it doesn't have that passive but it is still missing from Dominion. Thank you.



How about we just get the old warmogs back Or just change the meta and MELEE CARRY AND All fiGHTERS ?????

OH WAIT MY bad IT SLIPPED


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Wraen

Recruiter

02-26-2013

Quote:
Xypherous:
The thing about the late-game regen item is that ideally, I would like it to exclusively be a tank late-game regen item, as I think tanks without sustain are the class of characters that a late-game sustain item should support.

For example, Leona, Amumu, Nautilus etc. - These are the characters that need a heavy late-game regeneration option - not Xin Zhao, Irelia, Jax.

It may be that it might be impossible to create one without it being supplanted by bruisers - unsure - but I know that, if we created a high regen item, we'd want it to be more tailored towards true tanks like Leona / Mummy rather than Fighters.


@Xypherous Have you ever thought of creating an item such as Agnim's Scepter? Where it only affects certain champions?

Granted Scepter affects champions ults, you could easily say "This item gives 800 health: If you are amumu, leona, naut... etc etc you gain these stats as well..."

I'm sure it's not something you guys want in League and to mention somethign from DotA on these forums seems to be instant down votes, but if you want a tank item for certain champs... give it to just them.. Am I right?


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RockJockey

Senior Member

02-26-2013

Xypherous, this may be off topic, but is there any chance there will be an additional upgrade path for Seeker's Armguard? I would like to see an AP/Tank item that I can throw on Rammus or Malphite or Amumu, perhaps something with a cheaper build path than the current one for Zhonya's.

Also Could you integrate Seeker's Armguard into Wooglet's perhaps?


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Steinick

Senior Member

02-26-2013

Quote:
Xypherous:
This particular idea reduces down to:

Punish players for finishing an item early - by making it so that the earlier you finish the item, the weaker this is and the more gold-inefficient it is.



Rod of Ages?


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Dukowski

Junior Member

02-26-2013

Agree and bump