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@Riot, can we actually talk about Janna?

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Hathelol

Junior Member

02-16-2013

Agreed.. I love Janna. I play support mainly and I would definitely consider Janna to be my best.. but now I feel like "well, why should I play someone that takes skill when I could play someone easier who is more effective overall?" It makes me so sad.. I really hope this thread gets the attention it deserves and bring back the Janna we all loved! (Or at least some of her >&lt


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DA1KENKA1

Junior Member

02-16-2013

+1


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oddish33

Senior Member

02-16-2013

I agree with this Janna might be the most underpowered support out there and she is my main so it makes me sad ;p.


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Teslafury

Member

02-16-2013

Quote:
Jenluvartz:

Her auto attack. In the last patch it was made more responsive; I'm glad, it had a pretty long windup animation and it does feel more fluid now. However, is there a legit reason why she should have such a low auto attack range? It's the shortest it can possibly be while still being ranged. This is a problem for Janna because her spells aren't very good at poking so you'd want to harass with your autos a little but the range not only means you're easily punishable even for a quick AA > gtfo, it's also very obvious to see that Janna wants to toss in an AA. Also it makes it damn impossible for her to CS when her carry leaves/is dead and her enemies are still there. I don't know about you guys, but harassing with my auto attack is actually something I do a lot with my ranged supports (hell, even two of those ranged supports, Sona and Lulu, have PASSIVES designed around AA poking!) - except for Janna because her range is very short for no reason that I can see. Normalize it at 550 range (where she would match Sona, MF, and most ranged champions). It would buff her laning phase by making her able to harass a little.

I've never looked at this by the numbers, but now that you mention it; it's no surprise every ranged support can respond to Janna trying to auto attack harass, simply due to Janna's lack of range.

Quote:
Jenluvartz:

Eye of the Storm - her E. Or how Riot proved me that even Janna could be destroyed by nerfs. I've addressed this issue in multiple support and Janna threads, but for the sake of clarity I'll toss it here again. It is ridiculous. The AD being removed when the shield is broken made a Janna lane COMPLETELY unable to trade (which is ironic because that nerf happened during Riot's crusade to encourage aggressive support play over defensive/passive support play) unless the enemy really is stupid enough to not toss ANY damage towards the ADC during said trade (and if they're that stupid, you win the lane regardless of who you are playing). The shield is too easily broken even with long-ranged pokes (Ez or Cait's Q, Lux's E/Q, etc), even most supports are able to break the shield quickly to weakened your carry and make the mana you spent essentially go to waste.

That nerf, very sadly, made Janna the owner of the ONLY supportive buff that can be removed by the enemy team. You can hit MF out of her Strut, that's HER passive and it costs her no mana. You can't hit an enemy who's been buffed by Lulu's W hard enough to remove the bonus MS + AP. You can't hit Sona's carry hard enough to destroy her Q aura - it will vanish when SHE decides to switch to another aura. You can't hit an enemy that Soraka just used W on to make the armor buff last shorter. Etc. But you can remove the AD steroid from Janna's ADC with a single Headshot, Q+ Power Chord, etc. My suggestion is simple, fully revert that nerf. This change is imo the most important of all and I'd honestly settle with EVERYTHING ELSE I SAID AND WILL SAY being completely and utterly IGNORED for this change to happen.

Yup, gone are the days of clutch nados. The knockup on insta-nado is simply negligible now.

Quote:
Jenluvartz:

Monsoon - her ultimate. That's one of the strongest "judgement call" in the game and certainly the biggest among supports. However, it does not feel nearly as rewarding as it once did. The reason? The pushback range was nerfed down to 1000 to 875. To put things into perspective;

> Blitzcrank's Rocket Grab: 925 range
> Sona's Crescendo: 1000 range
> Nami's Aqua Prison: 875 range, her Tidal Wave: 2550 range
> Leona's Solar Flare: 1200 range, her Zenith Blade: 700 range
> Lulu's Glitterlance: 950 (not counting the possibility of shielded ally being closer to you than Lulu)
> Tresh's Death Sentence: 1075 range
> Miss Fortune's Bullet Time: 1400 range
> Graves' Buckshot: 950 range, his Collateral Damage: 1000 range
> Zyra's Grasping Roots: 1100 range, her Stranglethorn: 700 range
> Urgot's Hyper-Kinetic Position Reverser: scales with levels from 550 range to 600 then 850 (so late game Janna's ult is basically useless to prevent that; funnily enough Janna is supposed to be the late game support)
> Lux's Light Binding: 1175 range
> Katarina's Shunpo: 700 range
> Akali's Shadow Dance: 800 range (x3 dashes)
> Diana's Lunar Rush: 825 range (x2 dashes if marked with her Q)
> Kha'Zix's Leap: 600 base range, 900 with Evolved Wings
> Jarvan's Dragon Strike + Demacian Standard combo: 770 range on Dragon Strike, 830 range on Demacian Standard
> Amumu's Bandage Toss: 1100 range
> Vi's Vault Breaker: up to 725 range, her Assault and Battery: 700 range
> Morgana's Dark BInding: 1300 range, the max leash range on her Soul Shackle: 1050 (so you don't actually counter her like Janna like you used to)
> Malphite's Unstoppable Force: 1000 range
> LeBlanc's Etheral Chains: 950 range, her Sigil of Silence: 700, her Distortion: 600 (all of which can be Mimicked, of course)
> Nautilus' Dredge Line: 950 range, his Depth Charge: 850 range
> Fizz's Chum the Waters: 1250 range
> Riven's Broken Wings: 260 (x3 dashes), her Valor: 325 range (so if she QQQEs to someone, a total of 1150 range), her ult: 900 range
> Flash (as a general reference and since it can easily be used in combinaison with every engage or gap closer previously mentioned): 400 range, Ignite: 600 range, Exhaust: 550 range (against mostly for references because those are the most common spells bot lane).

So what do we notice?

1) It's extremely easy for most bot lanes to re-engage after you've used Monsoon (which, for the record, cost a TON of mana to cast). In some cases like Nami or Sona, they don't even need to move in to immediately re-engage so your ult, whose sole purpose is to DISENGAGE, is effectively useless except that you may have messed up your carry's AoE.
2) In team fights or ganks, your ult is not protecting or BARELY protecting your carry from the main threats coming his way. Once upon a time Janna was a very strong carry defender, in fact defending a strong carry was pretty much the only reason you'd pick her; now, as numbers clearly show, she can't even fill her own niche. She does not prevent assassins from jumping her carry, tanks can easily re-engage after being pushed back, etc.

It turns out, even a proper Janna ult isn't doing much for her team and her carry - given the mana cost, the CD, and the overall skill required to use Monsoon, that is unacceptable.

Again, I've never looked at Monsoon by the numbers before, but it explains why every one of her ults post-nerf seems much less impressive than before. Afterall, you're not even knocking people out that far.


In season 2, I played I think over 300 games as Janna, about 40% of these were after the consecutive patches of nerfs. She became so weak, that I had stopped playing her in the last few months of season 2.

In Season 3, she isn't even viable. It really doesn't matter what you try to do as Janna right now, she seems very underwhelming and has virtually no impact to the game. Picking Janna in solo/duo queue simply makes it a 4v5 for your team, In Ranked 5s, she might be viable depending on your team and coordination; however, there are so many better options available, there's virtually no reason to Janna other than "well, I feel like playing a Janna guys, please let me play it this match."


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Aeolian Melodies

Senior Member

02-16-2013

I have about 3k games played. I play mostly normals so it's hard to get numbers but I legit think I have about 1k with Sona, 1k with Janna, and the remaining 1k is divided into everybody else. I. Am. A. Janna. Player. A stubborn, die-hard Janna player. And even I don't feel like playing her anymore.

Welp, I actually was in the mindset that "Janna's still fine, it's just the super aggro meta not fitting her very well" until not that long ago where I played her again several games in a row (hadn't played her much even if I thought she could still be viable because I lane a lot with my boyfriend and he was never a fan of Janna even when she was at her strongest) and I realized how weak I was now. Don't get me wrong. I won games but tbh this was mostly because I was playing with my friend who mains Akali and he gets fed most of the time so all I have to do is toss some shields and ults in his favor and he carries. Tbh regardless of what we usually say after those games he'd probably carry just as hard without my help and I'd probably help him as much if not more as another support. It's also virtually impossible to win your lane as Janna, all you can hope is outplay them enough to STALL the lane. Well in the current state of the game, just NOT LOSING the bot lane is not nearly good enough.

So after those games of feeling "Wow I'm so much weaker, wtf" I actually sat down and looked at numbers. Now when I ult I often think I wasted it, mistimed it, misjudged it, whereas before I felt like my Monsoon were baws 90% of the time. I mean I knew I had probably gotten rusty because I played her less due to the nerfs but it made no sense that my 2nd most played champion had become THAT rusty. So I looked at those numbers and I realized.

It's not me. It's Monsoon itself. You can do some fancy stuff with it like flash + ulting to toss someone who was going to tower hug back into your teammates, but let's face it 90% of the time you're paying about 200 mana to immediately disengage a fight that's going sour. And I'd be fine with that mana cost if it could indeed disengage properly. The numbers I showed clearly display that it doesn't, be it bot lane or in a team fight it's very easy (and no scary at all) for the enemy to re-engage. So you've paid all that mana and used your ult just to delay them by .5 second. Great. Meanwhile the enemy support has an AoE stun, unkillable button, burst + crazy aura, damage + knock up, global heal, etc. I once said and thought it was the best ult in the entire game, about a year ago you'd pick Janna without thinking against AoE comps because she was THE counter, but in its current state Monsoon doesn't counter anything.


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PeteyPiranha

Senior Member

02-16-2013

Morello better get his ass in here, or I'll come to his house with a beam katana


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LeBlonde

Senior Member

02-16-2013

Everything you said resonated with me. I was known for my Janna among friends and acquaintances, and really enjoyed playing her. Now, she feels so weak that playing her just makes me feel unsatisfied and, in a way, wronged. She now requires that you outplay your opponents tremendously for little reward. Let's face it: There's no reason to pick Janna if Lulu is open.


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Aeolian Melodies

Senior Member

02-16-2013

Quote:
LeBlonde:
Everything you said resonated with me. I was known for my Janna among friends and acquaintances, and really enjoyed playing her. Now, she feels so weak that playing her just makes me feel unsatisfied and, in a way, wronged. She now requires that you outplay your opponents tremendously for little reward. Let's face it: There's no reason to pick Janna if Lulu is open.


And if Lulu isn't open she's most likely been picked by the enemy in which case you don't want to pick Janna anyway because she was always bad against high-poke lanes >.> lol.

But you described it well, I too feel wronged to that I put that amount of dedication into a champion who takes that amount of skills and I get roflstomped by champions that are so much easier to play if we (the players) are at the same skill level, I can stall if I'm better than them (hoping that my ADC is also better at CSing that the enemy), and only when I'm CONSIDERABLY better can we clearly win a lane (and by that I mean, I only win my lane when my opponents seem to just have hit lvl 30) on the condition that my ADC is working with me. God forbid I get an ADC who doesn't work well with me or I get against people who are better than me, I get ****stomped so hard with Janna.

I just recently picked up support Zyra. I'm 2/1 with her. I had never played Zyra (but I can land skillshots tyvm). I feel like I have as much utility if not more than Janna, AND I also have damage to boot. What gives? Why do I support better with Zyra with little to no experience when she isn't even an actual support champion?!

My friends are going into a LAN in about a month and one of them is learning support... it broke my heart but I told him to not bother with Janna. It sucks because she used such a must for anyone who wanted to be serious as a support player but now she's simply not worth it.


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Pyrodruid

Senior Member

02-16-2013

I main Janna, I started playing LoL post nerfs, so I never got to play her when she was considered powerful. I picked her up because I enjoy her playstyle.

As I didn't play her pre-nerfs I feel I can't overly comment on OP post, as it seem to draw a lot from what she was. Her current gameplay leaves it clear when you've outplayed you enemy, it you have you're likely winning your lane (not always), if you haven't (even to the point of breaking even) you feel as if you're on the back foot at the very least.


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Fiora All Night

Senior Member

02-16-2013

It makes me sad that I can only upvote this once. Keep going until a Red tries to tell us Janna's totally fine.