Bad decisions and the domino effect

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Hirumonogatari

Senior Member

02-16-2013

Hi, i'm not sure if everyone is familiar with the "domino effect", but a few streamers use it to describe the situation where someone makes a bad call or gets caught, the whole team goes in to try and salvage the situation and get killed one by one. thus the domino effect.

if someone gets caught or makes a bad choice (e.g. 2 team members dead, 3 alive, opposing team baroning, adc and ap want to go in and contest dragon), should the best move be to follow them even though in YOUR opinion it's a bad call, or should you let them be?

i find that either choice i make is the losing option. if i go in, i'm probably going to fuel the domino effect, especially in the case of someone getting caught. if i don't, losing 1 or 2 key members of the team is going to impact heavily on team performance, and if it comes down to it, 1 or 2 champs alive isn't going to make much difference when all 5 members of the enemy team come barrelling down the lane to take 2 towers.

any suggestions or opinions?


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FlowyS

Senior Member

02-16-2013

Don't worry about the domino effect too much. It's suppose to be like that. The stronger the enemy, the harder it is to kill them, and the easier it is for you to die.

Most of the times, you can help your teammates without putting yourself in danger first. Only put yourself in danger as a last resort. Also, you need to predict whether your help will make a difference or not. If an ally is destined to fall and there is no way to stop it, don't help them.


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Sylvr

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Senior Member

02-16-2013

I'm going to say that a well-coordinated bad call is better than a poorly-coordinated good call. In other words, you're usually better off following your team, even if it's a bad call. I've heard of plenty of teams deciding to "follow the feeder" to salvage a game, and turn their bad habits of getting caught into actual skirmishes and teamfights in which you have a chance of winning, rather than just losing someone for free.

Sure, it can backfire and turn 1 free kill into an Ace, but until you're experienced enough to identify those situations immediately, then you might as well test yourself. You might discover some capabilities and tactics that you didn't know about before. Some instances that you once thought were stupid might end up being not-so-bad. If nothing else, you'll be better practiced at working with your team, which a much better skill to have than the ability to ***** at your teammates from your fountain as you lose your inhibitors.

Along those lines, make sure that someone on your team is actually MAKING the calls. I've had so many games where nobody says anything, and I or someone else on my team will initiate without saying a word, and then just die for free whereas, if someone had just pinged or typed up their intentions, it might have worked. Take the lead if you have to. It's something that I'm personally working on when I jungle.


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Hirumonogatari

Senior Member

02-16-2013

of course as the game goes on if one team snowballs they get stronger. i'm not talking about that snowball effect.

what i mean is like for example if a teammate gets caught in your jungle. the rest of the enemy team is mia and is probably converging in on that location. your ap mid and your jungle decide to go there to try and help out. you know it's a lost cause trying to save caught teammate. should you follow and fight a one-sided teamfight?

i find these choices tough because if i go in, i MAY get a kill or a couple of assist but will most likely get killed. if i don't go, the 2 teammates that went to help are certainly going to die. the logical thing for enemy team to do at that point is either baron or come straight to take towers, both of which we will not be able to contest going 2 v 5.

that's the kind of decisions i have difficulty making.


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Hirumonogatari

Senior Member

02-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylvr View Post
I'm going to say that a well-coordinated bad call is better than a poorly-coordinated good call. In other words, you're usually better off following your team, even if it's a bad call. I've heard of plenty of teams deciding to "follow the feeder" to salvage a game, and turn their bad habits of getting caught into actual skirmishes and teamfights in which you have a chance of winning, rather than just losing someone for free.

Sure, it can backfire and turn 1 free kill into an Ace, but until you're experienced enough to identify those situations immediately, then you might as well test yourself. You might discover some capabilities and tactics that you didn't know about before. Some instances that you once thought were stupid might end up being not-so-bad. If nothing else, you'll be better practiced at working with your team, which a much better skill to have than the ability to ***** at your teammates from your fountain as you lose your inhibitors.

Along those lines, make sure that someone on your team is actually MAKING the calls. I've had so many games where nobody says anything, and I or someone else on my team will initiate without saying a word, and then just die for free whereas, if someone had just pinged or typed up their intentions, it might have worked. Take the lead if you have to. It's something that I'm personally working on when I jungle.
are there or do you have any tips or case studies of decision making? i feel that these decisions are probably one of the core skills of playing LoL, right up there besides mechanics like cs and map awareness.


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Sylvr

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Senior Member

02-16-2013

Most of what I know is what I picked up from playing and from watching streams. I'm only Silver Div3, and I don't get to play many PVP games because my internet is really bad (regularly spikes to over 500 ping).

There are so many variables that I don't think it's practical to try to hold them all consciously. I think that you just have to play a ton of games until the stuff just becomes obvious and subconscious.

It's somewhat of a tangent, but I believe that the key to being good at ANYTHING is to commit as much of the task as possible to your subconscious. It's just so much more powerful than your conscious mind. There are a LOT of things that people do every single day without even thinking about it that they couldn't explain in-depth if they had all day. The classic example is catching a ball. If you tried to math out how to catch a ball, you could fill half a notebook. If someone just threw a ball at you, you would probably just catch it purely by reflex. The same goes for playing games, sports, and instruments. It goes for Driving things, and performing feats with your hands (like juggling or coin tricks), and it even applies to stuff like writing or speaking. You just have to get yourself to the point where you KNOW things.

The only way to get there is to do it a lot. It goes for LoL as much as anything. You eventually just notice things without thinking about it.

The actual decisions are the easy part. Most decisions in LoL and in life are pretty obvious if you have the required information, and the mechanical skill to pull it off. In the study of rationality, it's said that any 2 people with the same priories (they're working with the same set of information) should always reach the same conclusions. The thing is, people very very rarely HAVE the same priories. One or both people are almost always missing some bit of information that the other has. This is why, when someone says something I disagree with, the first thing I ask myself is "Do they know something that I don't?"

The best you can do in LoL to speed along the process of making better decisions is to make a list of things you think you should pay attention to and practice noticing them. Some examples:

Know all of the champions' abilities
Know all of the items
Know all of the Summoner Spells
Know the map and mechanics of the game
Know who you're up against (remember all of the champs on the enemy team even if you're not directly against them in lane)
Know what summoner spells your opponent has
Know what items your opponent has
Estimate what Runes/Masteries you opponent has based on their stats
Know the cooldowns of your opponents Summoners and Skills
Know your opponents resources (track their CS and know approximately what they're capable of buying)
Know the Damage, CC, and Mobility capabilities of yourself, your team, and your opponents.
Expanding on the above, know the match-ups
Know where Wards are
Know how to read your opponents "body language" (If they suddenly get aggressive when they've previously been passive, then something is probably up, like an immanent gank)

The combination of the above conditions comes up to "Know how and when you can win a fight, or take an objective", and that's basically the whole game right there.

This is all just stuff that comes with experience. Another important aspect is knowing how to process the things that are happening. For instance, if you get killed by a Darius, you don't just conclude that Darius can kill you, period. You have to understand what the conditions are that allowed him to kill you, and know whether you can alter them in the future. Was he fed? Does he have higher CS than you? Are you sitting on 2k gold when he just went back and converted all of his gold to items, and so, got an item advantage on you even though you have the same farm? Were you taking a lot of minion damage during the trade? Did you use your skills properly? Did he have a summoner skill advantage (he had ignite where you have Teleport, and so he had an extra couple hundred damage on you)? This is the difference between actually getting better at the game, or just coming to the forums to complain that X champion is OP and needs to be nerfed, or that your champion is UP and needs buffs.

Decisions are the easy part. Decisions are like Math; if everyone knows and follows the method, then everyone will come to the same answer. The hard part of making decisions is gathering the necessary information (through research and/or experience), and knowing how to properly weigh it (mostly just experience).