Can we please have a serious discussion about AP Tryndamere

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FowD8

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Senior Member

02-15-2013

first off, please don't bother posting in here if all you have to say is "AP Trynd is troll" etc. I'm trying to have an actual discussion here and these statements don't at all contribute to the discussion, if you feel that's actually true, please explain why, i'm open ears

tl;dr Just some theorycrafting as to which is better AD or AP tryndamere, I found AP tryndamere to be better and AD tryndamere to just be bad, feel free to rebut, I really do want some input


Laning Phase:

Both
* Melee champ, easily harassed by ranged
* Has sustain from Q
* Can use E to quickly last hit and get away without taking too much harass

AD
* Can last hit easier thanks to runes/masteries

AP
* Greater sustain thanks to Q's AP scaling (150%)... with Amplifying Tome alone you get 60 HP per heal as opposed to AD's 30 HP per heal
* Better wave clear thanks to E's AP scaling (100% of total AP) vs AD scaling (120% of BONUS AD [Your base doesn't count])

** to better reflect on this AP costs about 22 gold per AP (tome), AD costs about 40 gold per AD (LS) but it's 120% scaling so it's more like 33 gold per AD... as you can see, your E scales better per gold with AP, about 50% better


The Split Push

Both
* Probably the strongest part about either AP or AD Tryndamere being able take down towers easily, yes even AP Tryndamere

AD
* Decent wave clear
* Can easily take down towers with all of his AD
* Has sustain with lifesteal to stay in lane and keep pressure, reliant on attacking champs/minions

AP
* AMAZING wave clear, can kill back row with E and front row with E + 1 AA each even at early-mid
* Surprisingly takes down turrets quickly even building AP thanks to base AD, especially nice if you rush Nashor's Tooth (CDR is a must on AP Trynd)
* Extremely hard to push out of lane mid-late because of the Q sustain (easily heals for half health) and with 39% CDR (Nashor's + CDR Boots + 4% from Masteries) you can constantly heal every 7 seconds as opposed to AD's 12 seconds for much less health
* Late game with Lich Bane AP Trynd can take down a tower as fast if not faster than AD
* Spellsword people forget about this mastery, 5% of AP to bonus magic dmg on AA's, not that big but 20 extra dmg per hit (with 400 AP) is pretty nice


Team Fights

This is where I think most of all AP outshines AD, so much it's not even funny

AD
* Easily kited

This is an important one and I'll list why

** AD Trynd's sustain comes from AA's, if you don't AA, you can't sustain in a team fight, and with all of the stuns/snares/slows that are currently in game, this will hurt you extremely bad

** AD Trynd's damage comes from AA's, *same problems as above*

* Luckily AD trynd has his ultimate which will help him if he wants to initiate for his team (if the team has no initiate), to barely escape a team fight if he gets focused, or to penetrate the enemy's front line to get to the enemy carries, problem here comes from stuns/snares/slows yet again

AP

* Is not as easily kited as AD Trynd, i'll explain this below

** AP Trynd's sustain unlike AD, comes from his Q, which will heal him for half his health in an instance, thanks to CDR, this will be up every 7 seconds, you can easily use this twice in a team fight, basically means the enemy team has to kill you twice (not including ultimate)

** AP Trynd's damage comes from spells, NOT AA's... specifically his E which will deal about 600 dmg with ~400 AP (very reachable) which can be used every 5 seconds, don't forget this is reduced by 2 seconds for each crit, and thanks to AS from Nashor's Tooth, it happens quite often

though of course AP Trynd can still be kiting not allowing you to crit for CDR, you'll be able to gap close twice as much than AD (CDR ftw) and slow enemies with W twice as often

* And just as AD Trynd, AP Trynd has his ultimate, the difference? it's up every ~54 seconds instead of every 90 seconds, this is huge and means you'll be ready to team fight every single time, even if it's a back to back team fight

* Now this is one of the biggest ones that people forget, Tryndamere's W lowers the AD of all in range... by... 80 AD, this is huge, this is more than the value of an IE or unstacked BT... basically negates an entire Teir 3 item to the enemy ADs, yes AD Trynd has this too
but the difference?

AD trynd can only use this once every 14 seconds whereas AP Trynd can case this every 8.5 seconds, even if he doesn't slow the enemy ADs, he's keeping their damage surpressed for 50% of the fight (lasts 4 seconds 8.5 sec CD means 4 sec reduced AD, 4.5 sec normal AD) if constantly casted



anyway, I've written enough, there's a bit of other things I could probably say that I can't think of, but I haven't found anywhere that AD Trynd outshines AP, especially in the in S3 with all these new items/champs


oh and a quick bonus for AP Trynd vs AD... mostly at low elo/divisions, people think AP Trynd does AP dmg and they build MR... in fact, AP Trynd is 100% AD dmg... use it to your advantage


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NoxisPWN

Member

02-15-2013

TL;DR: I want to discuss building AP on a melee carry.

Because f*ck logic.


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FowD8

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02-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoxisPWN View Post
TL;DR: I want to discuss building AP on a melee carry.

Because f*ck logic.
Someone didn't read the OP nor realizes that trynd has a 100% and 150% AP scaling, thank you for your useless input


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ecstaSTEVE

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02-15-2013

why do you really want to build tryndamere AP? why? you shouldn't. just because he has ap ratios does not mean you need to build mage items on him.

just ****ing don't


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FowD8

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02-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ecstaSTEVE View Post
why do you really want to build tryndamere AP? why? you shouldn't. just because he has ap ratios does not mean you need to build mage items on him.

just ****ing don't
my question is why? I listed where AP trynd is better than AD, please tell me where AD trynd is better than AP?

this thread is for a discussion, not "AP trynd sucks and is troll"... that doesn't explain anything and doesn't at all contribute to the discission, if he does suck and is troll, please explain why, i'm open to opinions as long as there is some reasoning to back it up


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ecstaSTEVE

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02-15-2013

he's as viable and troll-worthy as ad anivia, or ap trundle, or ms annie, or anything that isn't designed for its target playstyle


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FowD8

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02-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ecstaSTEVE View Post
he's as viable and troll-worthy as ad anivia, or ap trundle, or ms annie, or anything that isn't designed for its target playstyle
AP Mid Lulu isn't designed for its target playstyle and still does amazing

Jungle Thresh isn't designed for its target playstyle and still does decently well

AP Yi isn't designed for its target playstile and does ok (though in this case AD yi is a lot better for many reasons)

Support Nunu isn't designed for its target playstyle and is amazing at it's job (Nunu was created for jungle)

Support Zyra isn't designed for its target playstyle and is amazing at its job (one of the top supports in pro scene S2)

AP Mid Eve isn't designed for its target plastyle and this was OP S2 (she was created as a jungler)

the list goes on.


not to mention the ones you stated, AD Anivia, AP Trundle, and MS Annie have ZERO scaling for those stats, Trynd does, and very high scaling at that


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Macab

Senior Member

02-15-2013

I've played two games with very skilled AP Tryn players. It's not troll and I think it's better than AD. +1 for your explanation of why it's better.


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NotSid

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Senior Member

02-15-2013

Morello's is a great item on AP Tryn. "NOW HOLD ON A MINUTE!" you might be saying. "The unique passive on Morello's won't trigger for AP Tryn because his E still only does physical damage, regardless of what you build on him!" This is true, but remember, you take 1 point in the spellsword mastery, meaning your auto attacks will deal magic damage, thus triggering Morello's passive and allowing you to outheal anybody in your way.


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Dayblazer

Senior Member

02-15-2013

AP trynd works well. Its a really good split pushing build. Also its Easier to use in lane for sustain. I use it mostly to counter yorick because some ap plus Lifesteal and Yorick cant to anything to push you out of lane.

Also isnt Norak trying to get AP trynd Buffed?


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