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Quinn and Valor PBE Feedback Prompts

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Ahrimal

Recruiter

02-24-2013

Quote:
No Self:
Before I start giving my opinion about Quinn and Valor and the kit given to this champion I am first going to start off by explaining how long I have been playing this game and that I do in fact know what I am talking about. I have been playing League of Legends since the last week of the beta. Carry roles have been my favorite for a long time, however I have and can play any role in league of legends at a competent level with at the very least an advanced knowledge of my role relative to my team and the enemy team.

Now that being said lets dive into Quinn and Valor.

First and foremost is the auto attack range. 525 is not enough without at the very least 1 true escape (an escape move that does not require anything other than the press of the key like graves or ezreal e). Why is this? Doesn't she have a blind and a slow? Isn't that enough to let her escape or outplay her opponent? The short answer is no and the long answer is sometimes. If we were to take a look at graves we can easily see that this champion is very well suited for his role and in fact is a little too well suited. His 525 range is the only reason he is even balanced because he has so much utility in smoke screen and his dash for escape and dps. Now lets look back to Quinn and Valor who if released as is will be the only other "adc" in the game to have 525 range. What can Quinn use to escape or outplay a situation? Her e sets her back to AA range, 525 which is WELL within MANY skill shots and ones that cannot be dodged like Ryze's Rune prison which currently has 650 range. Also as a side note I would like to remind you that even Caitlyn has a better escape because even though her net can only move her 400 units in any direction it is not relative to an enemy or neutral monster and therefore does not have to place herself in danger to kite despite the fact that she has one of the longest AA ranges in the game. The key issue with Quinn's kitting potential is that it requires that she "go in to get out" if using this ability which in the current meta of under powered adc and huge health tank bruisers is a recipe for death and loss of a game unless Quinn and her team are far ahead in kills and/or cs. Outside of this meta I have only one question to anyone who plays league and that is if you are playing an adc that has low range like 525 or even 550 like vayne how effective are you at your role if you cannot kite well in a teamfight? The answer is you are useless. You will die every teamfight you do significant damage in (assuming that the teams are even and the enemy team has half a brain). Especially with how broken randuins active is for the cost... but thats outside of the issue here.

Ok so her E is probably best used as an offensive spell unless it can place her over a wall to safety whats next? How about her ult? Well yes her ult does seem quite good for getting away except there are two key problems with her ult. Number one is the cooldown time. Its so long that if Quinn has used her ult which is her only real kitting move in her kit it probably will not be back up in time for a fight (possibly even 2) so it is not reliable and if anything is a liability. Which brings me to my next issue with her ult which is that when activated she becomes a melee champion. As adc is my favorite role in the game I can honestly say from any hardcore adc players perspective why would I ever want to turn into a melee considering the items I will be building to make me an effective adc? I have little to no health and the ult itself does not provide me with anything other than movement speed and attack speed so what good is it really other than to move around the map and take objectives, but in turn giving up my ONLY real escape move that has a long cooldown? Someone told me that it gives you chasing potential, but seeing as how this ability doesn't even reset the cooldowns on her other three abilities all you can do when you get there is AA and use the second cast of her ult in the hopes of bursting down the opponent (provided that you arent too low from a fight yourself and get outplayed or nuked immediatly).

So at this point I ask myself when would I ever choose this character as my adc over any of the others? Her only real useful skill is her q as it gives her a blind. That blind is probably one of the best possible tools for dueling in bottom lane. Not only is it a blind its also a nuke so by hitting Quinn's Q a player effectively blinds an area of enemies and does significant damage to them (provided the enemy is an adc or support as is common in bottom lane). This is invaluable and probably far too good and its why you feel the need to expose her to a 525 range with little to no way of getting out of a fight. The problem is that during a team fight even if Quinn is ahead by 15 kills she has no real way of staying away from bruisers and ap carries who can kill her before she can use that damage. Blind is not that useful outside of a duel especially when it only lasts 1.5 seconds. Thats plenty of time for an Olaf or a Xin to tank any damage Quinn can spit out if she isn't chain cc'd by the enemy team.

So how do we remedy this? What can be done to give Quinn and Valor a fighting chance to be a usefull adc? Well here is what I have come up with. First increase her range even if only to 550! Second take the blind off of her q and put it on her e so that it can ONLY be applied to 1 champion. Then make her e a dash move rather than a on click ability this way it can be used as an escape as well as a dueling tool while putting some risk and reward into the ability (also make it so that if the dash lands on a champion or minion(s) it sets her back to AA range just like before, but if it does not land Quinn is stuck where she is). Third keep her Q as is, but replace the blind with an on hit slow. This gives her some kitting potential and also dueling potential, but the ability has to land in order for her to get the benefits so she has thus become a skill based champ.

Personally I love Quinn's W and passive and think that these are great as they are, however her ult does need to be changed in some way. The easiest fix would be to lower the cooldown a little and possibly give her some kind of resistance or health bonus while in ult form otherwise going into melee form is a liability in a teamfight. I also have been toying with the thought of reseting her ability cooldowns when she activates ult form, but I don't know if that would make her op or not considering the possibility for double dash and super high movement speed. A health bonus or resistance bonus is necessary though.

All in all I love Quinn and Valor as a champ, but as it stands right now she has no chance of being an actual carry. With adc items as nerfed as they are I wouldnt be too surprised to see all bruiser team comps soon enough because adc's are quickly becoming useless. I don't know if this is caused by a fear of them being too op or not, but Riot needs to keep in mind that they are carries for a reason. They are high risk high reward champions essential to a team for their damage output. If they can't do damage for whatever reason then they are useless and will be replaced. Quinn and Valor as of right now will be used as a top or mid lane champ to split push all game like Nid. So in a sense she will carry the game, but not as intended. lol

Anyway thx for reading and if you made it this far well I'm surprised. I doubt riot will read this, but if you do please try to take what I have written into consideration.

Sincerely
~No Self



QFT Though I disagree with some of your proposed fixes/changes. However, your assessment of her standing is spot on.


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Eyrgos

Senior Member

02-24-2013

Quote:
Ahrimal:
QFT Though I disagree with some of your proposed fixes/changes. However, your assessment of her standing is spot on.


I agree with that guy too, totally... I'm sad, she's supposed to be an adc but there's so many pitfalls to her as adc which sucks. I've played her a ton on PBE, a TON, and she's gimped against most if not all adc's her E is garbage against them, the blind unreliable, and harrier too opportunistic in a way... that ult causes her to drop worse against the other adcs in bot lane hard too.


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Ahrimal

Recruiter

02-24-2013

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=34997434#post34997434

Here's my assessment of best fixes.


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fiddleplayinjew

Member

02-24-2013

Quote:
No Self:
Before I start giving my opinion about Quinn and Valor and the kit given to this champion I am first going to start off by explaining how long I have been playing this game and that I do in fact know what I am talking about. I have been playing League of Legends since the last week of the beta. Carry roles have been my favorite for a long time, however I have and can play any role in league of legends at a competent level with at the very least an advanced knowledge of my role relative to my team and the enemy team.

Now that being said lets dive into Quinn and Valor.

First and foremost is the auto attack range. 525 is not enough without at the very least 1 true escape (an escape move that does not require anything other than the press of the key like graves or ezreal e). Why is this? Doesn't she have a blind and a slow? Isn't that enough to let her escape or outplay her opponent? The short answer is no and the long answer is sometimes. If we were to take a look at graves we can easily see that this champion is very well suited for his role and in fact is a little too well suited. His 525 range is the only reason he is even balanced because he has so much utility in smoke screen and his dash for escape and dps. Now lets look back to Quinn and Valor who if released as is will be the only other "adc" in the game to have 525 range. What can Quinn use to escape or outplay a situation? Her e sets her back to AA range, 525 which is WELL within MANY skill shots and ones that cannot be dodged like Ryze's Rune prison which currently has 650 range. Also as a side note I would like to remind you that even Caitlyn has a better escape because even though her net can only move her 400 units in any direction it is not relative to an enemy or neutral monster and therefore does not have to place herself in danger to kite despite the fact that she has one of the longest AA ranges in the game. The key issue with Quinn's kitting potential is that it requires that she "go in to get out" if using this ability which in the current meta of under powered adc and huge health tank bruisers is a recipe for death and loss of a game unless Quinn and her team are far ahead in kills and/or cs. Outside of this meta I have only one question to anyone who plays league and that is if you are playing an adc that has low range like 525 or even 550 like vayne how effective are you at your role if you cannot kite well in a teamfight? The answer is you are useless. You will die every teamfight you do significant damage in (assuming that the teams are even and the enemy team has half a brain). Especially with how broken randuins active is for the cost... but thats outside of the issue here.

Ok so her E is probably best used as an offensive spell unless it can place her over a wall to safety whats next? How about her ult? Well yes her ult does seem quite good for getting away except there are two key problems with her ult. Number one is the cooldown time. Its so long that if Quinn has used her ult which is her only real kitting move in her kit it probably will not be back up in time for a fight (possibly even 2) so it is not reliable and if anything is a liability. Which brings me to my next issue with her ult which is that when activated she becomes a melee champion. As adc is my favorite role in the game I can honestly say from any hardcore adc players perspective why would I ever want to turn into a melee considering the items I will be building to make me an effective adc? I have little to no health and the ult itself does not provide me with anything other than movement speed and attack speed so what good is it really other than to move around the map and take objectives, but in turn giving up my ONLY real escape move that has a long cooldown? Someone told me that it gives you chasing potential, but seeing as how this ability doesn't even reset the cooldowns on her other three abilities all you can do when you get there is AA and use the second cast of her ult in the hopes of bursting down the opponent (provided that you arent too low from a fight yourself and get outplayed or nuked immediatly).

So at this point I ask myself when would I ever choose this character as my adc over any of the others? Her only real useful skill is her q as it gives her a blind. That blind is probably one of the best possible tools for dueling in bottom lane. Not only is it a blind its also a nuke so by hitting Quinn's Q a player effectively blinds an area of enemies and does significant damage to them (provided the enemy is an adc or support as is common in bottom lane). This is invaluable and probably far too good and its why you feel the need to expose her to a 525 range with little to no way of getting out of a fight. The problem is that during a team fight even if Quinn is ahead by 15 kills she has no real way of staying away from bruisers and ap carries who can kill her before she can use that damage. Blind is not that useful outside of a duel especially when it only lasts 1.5 seconds. Thats plenty of time for an Olaf or a Xin to tank any damage Quinn can spit out if she isn't chain cc'd by the enemy team.

So how do we remedy this? What can be done to give Quinn and Valor a fighting chance to be a usefull adc? Well here is what I have come up with. First increase her range even if only to 550! Second take the blind off of her q and put it on her e so that it can ONLY be applied to 1 champion. Then make her e a dash move rather than a on click ability this way it can be used as an escape as well as a dueling tool while putting some risk and reward into the ability (also make it so that if the dash lands on a champion or minion(s) it sets her back to AA range just like before, but if it does not land Quinn is stuck where she is). Third keep her Q as is, but replace the blind with an on hit slow. This gives her some kitting potential and also dueling potential, but the ability has to land in order for her to get the benefits so she has thus become a skill based champ.

Personally I love Quinn's W and passive and think that these are great as they are, however her ult does need to be changed in some way. The easiest fix would be to lower the cooldown a little and possibly give her some kind of resistance or health bonus while in ult form otherwise going into melee form is a liability in a teamfight. I also have been toying with the thought of reseting her ability cooldowns when she activates ult form, but I don't know if that would make her op or not considering the possibility for double dash and super high movement speed. A health bonus or resistance bonus is necessary though.

All in all I love Quinn and Valor as a champ, but as it stands right now she has no chance of being an actual carry. With adc items as nerfed as they are I wouldnt be too surprised to see all bruiser team comps soon enough because adc's are quickly becoming useless. I don't know if this is caused by a fear of them being too op or not, but Riot needs to keep in mind that they are carries for a reason. They are high risk high reward champions essential to a team for their damage output. If they can't do damage for whatever reason then they are useless and will be replaced. Quinn and Valor as of right now will be used as a top or mid lane champ to split push all game like Nid. So in a sense she will carry the game, but not as intended. lol

Anyway thx for reading and if you made it this far well I'm surprised. I doubt riot will read this, but if you do please try to take what I have written into consideration.

Sincerely
~No Self


A wild Intelligent User appeared!

The most comprehensive and factual response to Quinn and Valor I have seen since all her controversy started. Please make these changes before she is released tomorrow.


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No Self

Junior Member

02-24-2013

Quote:
Eyrgos:
I agree with that guy too, totally... I'm sad, she's supposed to be an adc but there's so many pitfalls to her as adc which sucks. I've played her a ton on PBE, a TON, and she's gimped against most if not all adc's her E is garbage against them, the blind unreliable, and harrier too opportunistic in a way... that ult causes her to drop worse against the other adcs in bot lane hard too.


Thx guys. I am not a champ designer or an expert in any way other than a guy who has been playing league for a long time and loves the game. If you guys have any ideas throw them out here! Hopefully someone will see what has been said and either hold off on releasing Quinn and Valor or change them in the future. Can't say I think its likely, but anyway its worth a try.

~No Self


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Echorion

Senior Member

02-24-2013

I'm not terribly optimistic about Riot listening to any suggestions, but here it goes anyways.

I really think it would be cool if Quinn's phoenix skin got some particle effects too, so far it's really only Valor. I think that they look absolutely amazing, but I feel it would be so much better if one small thing was added: Her triple shot on a vulnerable target, wouldn't it be much cooler if she shot flaming arrows?
That matches her, matches Valor, matches the skin, gives her something nice too... and it's an effect you get to see every so often from their kit...

Riot please consider this, if it can't be done, I would love to at least hear a Riot perspective. Thank you.


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Taikero

Senior Member

02-25-2013

I still believe that Quinn's passive is bugged (if you kill an enemy unit just as Valor shows up, you don't get the proc and Valor doesn't show up again for 10 seconds. This is terrible.).

I also still believe Quinn's passive is too irregular. It doesn't prioritize large monsters in the Jungle, and minion selection can be kind of funky too (like selecting a minion you aren't even facing).

Finally, Quinn's R has no defensive steroid tacked on to keep her safe while in melee range.


This all means Quinn will only really be useful as some sort of on-hit AD bruiser.


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CTElephant

Senior Member

02-25-2013

I've read about 20 pages of this thread, and even not playing her in PBE, I have some suggestions to correct her gameplay with minimal changes required to combat some common issues found by players who have tested her.

1 harrier- instead of by random chance, have valor mark targets 3seconds after quinn's auto attack, with a 6 second cd and adjust damage. This allows more control over her passive while still allowing enemies to be able to have counter play.

2. I feel her blind and vault abilities are fine, though vault is a bit hinky when it comes to utility, it is still viable.

3. Her ult is very unique, and thus it kind of throws her into a weird meta limbo. My suggestion would be to modify valor to turn 40% of AD into MR and armor. This provides some scaling defenses as well as allows some safety without being overbearing due to easy counter play via penetration.


Just some quick ideas, they are by no means unflawed, but they would make for more stable game play in my opinion.

I think the reason for people not finding she is suitable is because of the meta mentality. I don't think you should follow the meta with this champ whatsoever.... She looks to need to rush a phage then stinger then a BF, then zephyr then frozen mallet then a BT and some other heavy AD items to rake in the damage. There are other ways to build her too, just keep in mind you can't blindly stack AD like the meta would suggest... Give her a zephyr to start and go from there. That was mentioned in a previous post and I agree.


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DarkerNectron

Senior Member

02-25-2013

Well after ~15 or so games... here's my opinion on Quinn/Valor.

Quinn's Passive
Valor's appearance animation pretty cool. What I don't like about this is that I'm required to hold off auto attacking the target till valor finishes its 'marking animation'. I would prefer that a target be considered marked near the beginning of the animation. (have the animation appear a bit later so that the target is considered proc'd by the time the target has begun appearing).
Quinn's Q
I like this ability, it has great utility and wins exchanges. Its synergies especially well in valor form.
Quinn's W
Passives are good
Quinn's E
Her bread and butter. Level this first. The slow is better than expected, the damage is nice, the extra proc is awesome. Getting 2 procs in a row against the same target is incredibly strong. I especially enjoy using it against Jax and other champions with gap closers.
Quinn's R
Her ultimate could use a few seconds shaved off (10-15s) its cool-down. If you die in Valor form, this skill should go on cool-down once you die.
Edit: TY!

Critique aside, I enjoy playing Quinn very much. She'll make an excellent addition to the league and I look forward to seeing her played to her potential. Congrats on completing the Champion Alphabet!


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Vsin

Senior Member

02-26-2013

Quote:
No Self:
*snip*
Sincerely
~No Self

I...actually disagree with most of that assessment for one very simple reason: I do not consider Quinn to be an ADC. To me, she is an AD Caster who transitions into an autoattack bruiser. That is the very core reason why I don't care about her lack of escapes, nor do I mind Valor's existence as a melee carry-ish champion.

Having said that, I don't believe even that role is particularly successful, but I've already written my wall of text on that subject (Page...31-33 ish I believe?)