The Ashe-Teemo Debacle

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LVL98 Snorlax

Member

02-14-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hetžer View Post
170dmg over a duration is different than 170 instantly

you need to divide total damage / sec,

damage over time is hurt by innate health regen or even an hp pot, lifesteal etc

damage over time when speaking in a 1on1 case isnt very life threatening, and since it's ap damage it cannot crit, so its valued way less than 4 BF swords.

AD is priced high for a low ammount for a reason (1650g for 45ad compared to 1600g for 80ap)

why do you ask?
AD is always 1:1,
you get 45 AD, your auto attacks always do 45more damage, before being mitigated by armor, it suffers from 1 penalty/reduction (armor)
AD damage (autos) can also crit.

AP is rarely 1:1, AP suffers from -RATIOS- on skills
you spend 1600g for 80ap, you do not get 80damage on your spell.

your spell takes a % of it, sometimes its nice and high with a 0.8-1 or as low as .2 or .3

let's say its generous and you get .8..not only is that ''80damage'' you bought reduced to 64 damage towards your spell it also suffers a second penalty, magic resist
and anything ap based, cannot crit
This is a great response. Though if we are going back to the topic of gold value I have done some rough calculations to better justify my previous numbers.

Frozen Mallet -
+30AD
+700HP
+Passive (ranged is 30% slow over 1.5sec)

The 30AD is roughly worth 1200g
The 700HP is roughly worth 1850g
After the fact the passive is left at a mere 250g cost.

Regardless of mitigation and damage over time, the passive gained by Teemo's Toxic Shot is easily worth 1 BF Sword's worth of damage still equaling over 6 times the gold estimate of Frost Shot, not to mention the inherit mana cost of Frost Shot.


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Hetžer

Senior Member

02-14-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by LVL98 Snorlax View Post
I accept your inputs though I reject your reasonings as erroneous or irrelevant. That's not to be taken as offensive as I mean nothing personal by it I am simply stating my opinions on the matter and I completely understand if you reject my reasonings or logic.


Wrong, I can and that is in fact a valid way of balancing or searching for imbalance.


Irrelevant as, like I previously stated, I agree with how Ashe is set up, her cost is justified and balanced. Teemo's ability was the root of the topic and your post roughly covered nothing important on that aspect.

it actually did, you are blinded by your own opinion, go re-read because you hoenstly just skimmed and missed a bunch of stuff, saying you havent is a lie or you are just being delusional on purpose.


170dmg is nothing, 170dmg only at lvl 9 and only investing in that ability asap is nothing, it being AP/Magic based is even less of a worry, the fact its OVER TIME its even less of a threat.

35g hp potion, counters all that free 6kgold damage
innate hp regen shaves atleast 1/6 of that dmg away.
natural scalling MR reduces it more,
420g magic mantle reduces it by 16-18%
its overtime and cannot crit

he needs to get into close range to even benefit from it.

leona + draven, vayne, cait, is a free kill on teemo, hell even varus, HELL even taric as the support,

170ap dmg over x seconds does not add up to 4 BF swords. 4 bf swords is 160dmg EVERY time you hit, you can have 2.0 atk speed, thats 320dmg a second, which can crit and only suffers one penatly, not 2 penalties like ap/magic dmg


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LVL98 Snorlax

Member

02-14-2013

Your continuous posts stating your lack of knowledge of general game mechanics and balancing methods have led me to disregard your posts. I apologize if this offends you but I feel you are not posting beneficial responses to the topic at hand.

Example.
A) AP dmg isnt a thing, its called magic damage, leading to B...
B) You state MR shaves damage though dont account that Armor does the same to physical damage anyways
C) Arguments of HP potion countering the damage done can be said about any damage, not to mention the sheer numbers would mean 1 potion EVERY single autoattack to counter just the bonus damage.
D) Your claim that it does not equal BF swords as BF swords apply dmg per hit though Teemo's passive in question does in fact apply damage every hit. Given the dmg for consecutive hits is lower, it is still at a base of roughly 1 BF sword (as I also already mentioned)

Quote:
leona + draven, vayne, cait, is a free kill on teemo, hell even varus, HELL even taric as the support
E) ^-- is completely irrelevant on the current topic.

Your lack of complete awareness as to what the actual topic of debate is has become increasingly evident and though I thank you for your input and effort and welcome you to feel free to continue reading or posting, I do not intend to respond to your efforts.


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Hetžer

Senior Member

02-14-2013

We showed you the math, we proved you with the stats
we proved you with the scenarios

you dont wish to believe any of it, keep thinking you're right, because you really arent.

you're complaining about a free 170dmg over time on a teemo, that has no range, no on command cc, and his only "reliable" CC has a huge flaw on it, where it does nothing against abilities.

9/10 forum troll would not bother to argue again.

side note, go make a new topic on how vayne gets free dmg with her true damage passive, where it costs no mana, thats its so op where she has no tradeoffs for it.

love how you;re complaining about 8mana to have an on command frozen mallet, who cares if its a tad less slow than the actual one, you gain a free item spot for not having to make something to have a constant slow, than in itself is worth 8mana per use.
secondly even if you wanted hp, youd be betetr off with a banshees or a warmogs

add either of those two with the benefits of a perma slow, being safe at EVERY stage of the game is worth 8mana

tell me whats quicker, getting level 2? or getting enough gold for a mallet?

and cry more over teemo's free 42dmg a second

50 initial, 30 per second, 4 seconds,
4 second is the time interval
50/4
42.5 dmg per second

that took 5 skillpoints and 10minutes to work UP to,

when it has 5 things negatively impacting it, dmg can be mitigated
perma slows cannot be mitigated.

you are proven wrong. deal with it


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CerealBoxOfDoom

Senior Member

02-14-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by LVL98 Snorlax View Post
I respect your opinion and input though I think your logic is very one-sided in view. You claim that Ashe deserves the downside because of her ability to create CC. But looking at Teemo's kit, his ability causes just as much while giving him just as many steroids. He can heavily increase his move speed at will, while being able to slow and BLIND opponents. Blind being one of the most powerful 1v1 CC's in the game (in my opinion). It's not a matter of comparing their kits though, I'm simply inquiring as to why his extra damage should be "free". As stated in original post, I feel Ashe's Frost Shot having a cost is completely justified as I do believe a perma-slow is scary. I do however disagree with Toxic Shot having no cost, no internal cooldown; No reason not to take it 1,3,5,7,9 no matter how you're building him.
There's no getting around comparing entire kits when talking about two champs manacosts. Teemo has nice things but he has NO refreshing CC and blind is not nearly as powerful as a stun. Blind has little to no effect on many casters especially AP casters. Slows and stuns have significant effect on nearly every champ. Additionally permaslows are weighted even more heavily as a matter of game design. It is for this very reason that sejuani struggles to get buffs.

I wasnt being biased, I wasnt leaving out teemo's other abilities just to make it seem fair. It has to do with the weight of the kit. Anything attached to an autoattack especially CC is always going to be expensive. The only two exceptions I can think of are gangplank and sejuani both of whom have been nerfed into the ground.


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LVL98 Snorlax

Member

02-14-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CerealBoxOfDoom View Post
Anything attached to an autoattack especially CC is always going to be expensive.
You literally just contradicted your argument within itself. As this whole topic is about how Toxic Shot is "attached to an autoattack" for no cost.

Also in regard to the rest of your post I state once again.. for the 3rd...4th..or even 5th time--I've honestly lost count-- I'm not disagreeing with the mana cost on frost shot, I'm disagreeing with the amount of raw damage Teemo's passive adds and its actual worth as compared to Frost Shot. This argument could be made in simile with many other on-hit effect champions get that were previously stated but I chose Frost Shot to discuss with it merely as a comparative factor, not as the main topic.


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DarksideEric

Senior Member

02-14-2013

Sorry Snorlax, but as a designer, Hetzer and others have you beat.


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LVL98 Snorlax

Member

02-14-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarksideEric View Post
Sorry Snorlax, but as a designer, Hetzer and others have you beat.

Also as a designer, I fail to see how...

Stating random scenarios in which one champion is weak is not an argument against this circumstance. Stating that a slow is better than extra damage when escaping or setting up a gank is true, but not relevant to the topic at hand. I'm not debating whether slows are stronger than extra damage, especially not in a situation which obviously favors one over the other. I'm seeking an intelligent counter-argument or justification in terms of the actual matter at hand; Not in relation to other champions, not in relation to a certain scenario hand crafted to deny my claims, but in a simple statement of raw game mechanics and design. This I have yet to see and I see no reason to accept anything else. My points I have brought have great merit, far greater than those I've read from others. Stating not only exact numbers, but relevant data to back my claims. Whereas my claims have been countered by shoddy or inaccurate math and lack of tangible and reliable data.

I thank you for your input as a fellow designer but I implore you to check further into the matter before discrediting me.


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DarksideEric

Senior Member

02-14-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by LVL98 Snorlax View Post
Also as a designer, I fail to see how...

Stating random scenarios in which one champion is weak is not an argument against this circumstance. Stating that a slow is better than extra damage when escaping or setting up a gank is true, but not relevant to the topic at hand. I'm not debating whether slows are stronger than extra damage, especially not in a situation which obviously favors one over the other. I'm seeking an intelligent counter-argument or justification in terms of the actual matter at hand; Not in relation to other champions, not in relation to a certain scenario hand crafted to deny my claims, but in a simple statement of raw game mechanics and design. This I have yet to see and I see no reason to accept anything else. My points I have brought have great merit, far greater than those I've read from others. Stating not only exact numbers, but relevant data to back my claims. Whereas my claims have been countered by shoddy or inaccurate math and lack of tangible and reliable data.

I thank you for your input as a fellow designer but I implore you to check further into the matter before discrediting me.
But I have read, and as a designer it seems you are doing the incorrect thing by the things I have highlighted through bolding.

You're trying to make this solely Ashe vs. Teemo's mechanics but the overall game does not work like that. Ashe's Frost Shot has a Mana cost to it because of the utility it provides, Teemo's provides no utility, is mitigated harder due to the DoT effect, and thus requires no cost.

I understand what you're saying, however you're discussing the wrong thing because you're looking at, again, solely Ashe and solely Teemo's mechanics and not how these mechanics as a whole fit into the scope of the game.

Entire game scope included, this meaning items, game flow, etc, Teemo's Toxic Shot should not act like Ashe's Frost Shot because of the following:

Slow is a Crowd Control and is very important to multiple situations throughout the flow of the game.

Ashe is not required to purchase an item to get this Crowd Control whereas Teemo is.

Ashe's ability to Slow with not only Frost Shot, but Volley and Crystal Arrow (with Stun) allows her to chase or kite much easier than Teemo with Move Quick which is his only reliable chase or kiting tool.

Teemo has no ability to kite in the same way Ashe does unless he buys items, high cost items mind you, while Ashe has to do neither.

Hence, Teemo's is free, Ashe's isn't.


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LVL98 Snorlax

Member

02-14-2013

+1 for a very valid counter. I find difficulty in objecting to your logic to be quite honest. You have laid out your claims very well and this I appreciate highly.

I do dislike the fact that you also contradicted yourself in your own statement. You state that

Quote:
you're discussing the wrong thing because you're looking at, again, solely Ashe and solely Teemo's mechanics
then go on to compare them point to point in a manner you just claimed I should not.

I am not saying Ashe's ability to slow and kite is not incredible and well worth the 8mana per attack on the active, as well as the ability to apply the slow on her volley.

I feel it necessary to point out that in looking at Teemo's kit as a whole and in the scope of the game as you desire me to do, I see Teemo as a stay and fight type champion, a weak one but one at that. His kit is not designed to kite so I see flaws in comparing him in that light. His move quick is designed to be a chase, or quick escape from immediate danger. His raw damage output and his semi-unique ability to blind a target is what creates his ability to stay in a fight.

In regards to saying Ashe gets a free slow; This much is true of any ability. That is the point of skills-- to add a specific piece to a play-style and removing the need to buy a specific item or increasing effect from doing so. I am simply stating that the effects of one is, in gold equivalency, more effective and at less of a cost in the long run. Teemo could buy a Frozen Mallet for 3300 gold and be at an advantage over Ashe who would have to buy several different items (to match the HP and AD bonus from Frozen Mallet, and on top of that match the bonus damage from Toxic Shot) to equate to the gain Teemo achieves.


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