[Theorycrafting] Damage Heroes as Support

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FreshFuhrer

Senior Member

02-14-2013

Hello. Recently I had 'quit' League last year due to consistent crashing, and went to DotA (I know that might spell scum for you, but give me a minute). I came back for S3 and I think the game has taken a step in the right direction. While I'm still not partial to the unlocking champions system or the runes, the new items might unlock a lot of strategy, maybe even a meta change.
Now, I'm not saying this is fact or anything, but hear me out here.
With the new AP items innately offering utility, and being able to build Philo Stone into not one but TWO items with AP (edit: This is wrong, but hey, Ohmwrecker, right?), I think that classic mid laners may be able to work as offensive supports.
We've already seen a shift in the meta for AD players, Graves and Corki have fallen under, this week Corki is even under Twitch. Draven, Caitlyn and MF, basically pure damage champions have grown in popularity while Ez still reigns supreme. Could high damage synergy be a better decent counter against typical support roles?
Right now, naturally, most supports have decent harass and high crowd control. Some feature a heal, and can generally play offensive, or defensive.
Let's take a look at Orianna first, who is sometimes seen as a sidelaner (though rarely) anyways.
You know her kit, she has some utility but is mostly damage, save for her ultimate which can really make a teamfight. Command Attack can be used twice before his heal is off cooldown and does slightly less damage, and even costs less mana. It can also be used as a ward, so long as she stays in the lane. Her auto attack has tremendous amounts of damage in the early game, encouraging her to harass without and allowing her to benefit from pickpocket. Dissonance speaks for itself. Slow, speed, and a great scale allows for quick escapes or ganks. Protect not only shields for a powerful amount, but also increases resistances AND deals damage. At level 6, she can hold off ganks from an enemy jungler OR make her own teams ganks lethally efficient. If you have her here, you can also have another teamfighter go mid, allowing for midgame domination whereas a normal support, arguably, may not be quite as valuable.

The question is, is the utility offered from the top supports worth the teamfight and damage output potential of mid laners?
Let's look at Twisted Fate.
Humongous harass and utility. He even generates more gold for his team, and can predict ganks with his ultimate. While he lacks a shield, he can sustain himself in the lane with Blue Card, which deals a large amount of damage, which he can use to harass, naturally.

Vladmir doesn't even have a mana pool. His ultimate can greatly amplify his carry's damage, and his harass is extremely powerful. He also has a slow.

Even Swain can adapt. He has large, area CC and a slow.

All of these champions don't even need to build support items. With the Ohmwrecker change, Twin Shadows, Banner of Command and such allows for AP as well as 'Support' utility. Kages builds into more AP-esque items if a team needs more damage.
Think about it, with the popularity of Cleanse now, is the utility still worth it ALL the time?


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ikandee

Junior Member

02-14-2013

This is really interesting and I quite enjoyed the read.
Im definitely gonna start testing this out. If im playing with friends in normal then i do stuff similar to this except I just build normally. I find that it's generally quite viable but you DO have to be on the offensive the whole time seeing as you dont have all too much sustain. You can easily out damage them and late game your team will be that much stronger.


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FreshFuhrer

Senior Member

02-14-2013

I appreciate the feedback, and yes, I agree, its risky for some heroes.
And naturally some aren't suited for it. Veigar, for instance.


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M1ST4K3N

Senior Member

02-14-2013

I actually played support fiddlesticks earlier today. It was a little rough at first (I main support, but I usually play champs like taric and leona). Once I'd gained a few levels though, it was gg. I finished 13/16/23. Those stats might not sound like the greatest, but here's the catch: They focused me first in all team fights. Once I'd built Kage's lucky pick and a philo stone, I just started building straight damage.

BTW, it was also probably the most fun I've had supporting


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angryWelchMan

Senior Member

02-14-2013

I think you missed the main factor in weather or not a champion can support. That is whether or not that champion can function with minimal gold. Assuming your AP champ wont get a Avarice Blade, the maximum gold per ten you can get is 12 and you begin the game with only three. The two gold per 10 items you get will most likely have to be purchased after your sightstone. Also any other damage item will have to be purchased along side sight wards. Also most of the time you'll be wanting to give the actual kill to your adc saving only the assist for yourself. One last point support are normally only allowed 3 items plus boots, sightstone and a stack of wards.

I dont play many ap mids but I play a lot of support, so I genuinely curious if any of the AP mids can be strong with late game damage with 3 items you can afford on assist and global gold

All in all this sound like a great idea if your working with a team so you'll have a tanky top/jungle and some help warding but might not work too well in solo queue


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FreshFuhrer

Senior Member

02-14-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by angryWelchMan View Post
I think you missed the main factor in weather or not a champion can support. That is whether or not that champion can function with minimal gold. Assuming your AP champ wont get a Avarice Blade, the maximum gold per ten you can get is 12 and you begin the game with only three. The two gold per 10 items you get will most likely have to be purchased after your sightstone. Also any other damage item will have to be purchased along side sight wards. Also most of the time you'll be wanting to give the actual kill to your adc saving only the assist for yourself. One last point support are normally only allowed 3 items plus boots, sightstone and a stack of wards.

I dont play many ap mids but I play a lot of support, so I genuinely curious if any of the AP mids can be strong with late game damage with 3 items you can afford on assist and global gold

All in all this sound like a great idea if your working with a team so you'll have a tanky top/jungle and some help warding but might not work too well in solo queue
Right, of course. I listed off some champions that can do that, Vlad with his general damage amplification helps everyone on the team despite his AP (though scaling AP runes, or flat AP runes might help them a LOT)
I wasn't really thinking it would be viable for solo queue unless it fell into practice, perhaps I should have specified. AP carries are typically placed into midlane though because of their reliance on levels rather than items. Level scaling is a major source of damage while AP is secondary (believe it or not, but AP is really valuable in the late game)
Control in teamfights can have a huge advantage. Nunu was popular for a while but fell out of play because of his reliance on AP, his scaling alone is minimal and he otherwise has one damaging ability against a champion.

But I do agree.


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Moon Rabbit

Senior Member

02-14-2013

I like to see if Banner of Command is viable with mid.

You can activate the skill and let the cannon minion push while you gank top or bot


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ROKAF JE

Senior Member

02-14-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by FreshFuhrer View Post
Let's take a look at Orianna first.....

Let's look at Twisted Fate...........

Vladmir doesn't even have a mana pool...........

Even Swain can adapt........
Orianna brings about 0 damage and minor utility if she maxes Shield first to protect the carry. If she doesn't, the AD carry becomes an easy target, both ADC and Orianna being easily CC'd.
She works, she's not ideal by any means (0cs Orianna vs 0cs Taric for example)

Twisted Fate as a support? All he really has is the stun.. He needs a good chunk of money to deal any real damage, and to deal said damage he must either push the lane, or be in a bad position (no escapes, innately squishy)

Vladimir is more of a lategame champion, his laning phase kind of sucks as he is very easy to kill, even with his pool, and he gives your ADC absolutely nothing.
Fiddlesticks does his job, except 15 times better.

Swain also needs a considerable amount of money to truly be effective, and is basically gimp (no pun intended) without ROA/Athene's - which will take him forever to get, if he even makes it there.

Out of the 4, Orianna is best, but there are better still.
Basically what you look for is CC/mega utility with very high base damages.


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ROKAF JE

Senior Member

02-14-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by FreshFuhrer View Post
Nunu was popular for a while but fell out of play because of his reliance on AP, his scaling alone is minimal and he otherwise has one damaging ability against a champion.
Nunu has some of the best base stats in the game.
Nunu is still popular, how is his CC/Debuff damage spell reliant on AP?
It's a 25%+ AS/MS debuff, while he buffs his own carry.

His ults base damage needs no AP, it's a MASSIVE aoe slow that forces an exhaust, flashes, the enemy out of position, or chunked for a huge part of their health.
6 - 625
11 - 875
16 - 1125

Outside of his ult, Nunu isn't about damage. He's all about utility.


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ROKAF JE

Senior Member

02-14-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by angryWelchMan View Post
I think you missed the main factor in weather or not a champion can support. That is whether or not that champion can function with minimal gold.
Rules for this:
1. You still need a Sightstone + pink wards
2. Don't take CS
3. If you are not doing well, you need to stop stacking damage.
4. You don't play this if your jungler won't build Locket/Runic

Quote:
Originally Posted by FreshFuhrer View Post
I appreciate the feedback, and yes, I agree, its risky for some heroes.
And naturally some aren't suited for it. Veigar, for instance.
Veigar actually works quite well, because of that Stun, and his base Ult damage.
I'd say he's my favourite "troll" support, because even without Farming you can still kill the enemy APC.
Edit: In fact.. I think I'll play him now.


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