Nidalee's W

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Aroph

Member

02-13-2013

I'm not here to QQ about her spear, but I think Nidalee's kit is a bit strong.

So let's start with her skills in Human Form. Javelin Toss. It's strong. It's good. Nothing's wrong with it. But I'll talk about her W now...

Her W is Bushwack, which places a trap that lasts 4 minutes. Its mechanics really are similar to Caitlyn's Yordle Snap Trap. Once placed, it shows vision of surrounding area for a very short moment, and then it provides no vision at all. It can be stepped on during those 4 minutes for someone to be revealed and have their MR and armor reduced for 12 seconds. They also take some damage over 2 seconds.

Now, at max level, this reduces their MR and armor by a staggering 40%. 40%? That's a pretty big number if you ask me. The damage on this trap also scales decently off AP, which is a viable thing to build on Nidalee, along with AD.

Let's look at Caitlyn's Yordle Snap Trap. When stepped on, it immobilizes an enemy for 1.5 seconds and deals damage over that duration. Caitlyn's deals more damage than Nidalee's at max level only by 20 damage. Plus, they both scale off AP, so Nidalee gets more benefits from this.

Caitlyn can only set up 3 of these at a time, while Nidalee can infinitely place them. So including the scaling of AP, Nidalee's trap does more damage, reduces armor and MR by 40%, while Caitlyn's doesn't, it lasts 12 seconds compared to Caitlyn's 9 seconds. The only upperhand Caitlyn has is its 1.5 second stun, which is negligible, because by the time you get to a place to shoot a jungler, they'll get out of the stun. You most likely won't know when someone will step on your trap, if it's in the fog of war.

I play Nidalee and I literally watch as someone steps on my trap and walk around with their team, providing us with vision for the longest time ever.

I think it should be reduced to 9 seconds, really. The rest of her kit makes her annoying, but her W is a bit much. 3 seconds can change things, but not make her W too ineffective to the point of where it is useless. It'll still be useful, retaining its armor and MR % reduction.

She has free wards, sustain skill, attack speed steroid, escape skill, finisher skill, nuke skill, chase skill, and farming skills. I think lowering the W by a fourth of its time won't hurt her much.


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Cabbage Foot

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Junior Member

02-19-2013

Look, nidalee is basically a support or a bruiser, building her pure AP spells death for your team if you get into end game because she is quite a glass cannon if you try to take advantage of her scaling. all of her abilities are basically focused on before fight and after fights, not during them, so almost useless in a team fight. leave her alone, she has her niche and it makes her unique. Counterpoints:

Her W is NOT a ward because it has no vision when it is on the ground so it provides little security unless someone ACTUALLY steps on it, did i mention the traps aren't invisible? so you can literally go around them if you are careful.

You are comparing apples and oranges with Cait's trap, it stuns, that means it can be used ot great effect to set up nuke combos. Nidalee's trap on the other hand does pretty bad magic damage and rebuffs MR/armor, which is only useful before large fights if you can get it on a tanky character.

Nidalee does not build AD, i don't know where you got this from, but as an AD she would die very quickly, perhaps you mean bruiser, but even then it dosn't help you any more then it would any other bruiser champ (a little)

Quote:
So let's start with her skills in Human Form. Javelin Toss. It's strong. It's good. Nothing's wrong with it. But I'll talk about her W now...
Nice glaze over there. Why did you even mention this if you aren't going to be objective? Its slow, generally easy to dodge unless you throw it through walls or from bush, its a harassing ability at best because it requires you to be really far away for it to do any damage and not be a gigantic waste of mana, It is strong, but it requires you to think 2 seconds into the future to land it properly and it does not synergies with any of her other damage abilities because you have to be so far away.

So many more things that I would love to dispute but I don't really want to get off topic, as the main topic was her W, and i had to toch on the Q a little.


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KutzulXE

Member

02-19-2013

I think this is a fantastic Nidalee analyis. I'm seeing nidalee dominate all over the place and I think this could be an area to look at in terms of nerfing her.

As far as the AP ratio goes on her trap, I kind of like it and think it's somewhat necessary for her to survive as a mid AP. It allows her to throw down a bit of damage right on top of someone and follow up with some auto attacks for harass since the debuff makes them do a decent amount of damage. I DO however agree with nerfing the duration of the vision. 12 seconds I think is objectively too long. No other vision abilities last nearly that long. I like the 8-9 second duration a lot more than the 12 second one. 40% I think is also too high. It's not like anyone these days is building resistances anyway, however, for something that can be placed infinitely, it's too high.

The utility of infinite placement is something defining to her kit, I think. Placing a limit would be uncalled for.

This idea is interesting to me because it's a different take on nerfs, instead of "NERF THE DAMAGE." I like it.


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Mysterage

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Senior Member

02-20-2013

If Nidalee gets any nerfs I'm immediately going to the support forum to ask for a refund on her, and both of the skins I own for her.

I feel she is that balanced. You don't own every game as her. You have to come across some pretty ignorant players to facestomp them. I've had some absolutely amazing games as her, but that was because I was at my very utmost and absolute best.


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Alstromeria

Member

02-20-2013

You have to think about the aspects of why Nidalee's skills are the way they are rather than pin pointing individual skills and say its really "Game Changing".

Nidalee is a simple "Jack of all Trades" Champion. She does all roles well, but other champion specific roles can do them a lot better than she can.

=-=-=-

On topic- If you think about Bushwhack in that aspect, then yes it does sound game breaking. But you honestly have to think about when in fact players run over those traps to begin with. Majority of the time it gets tripped over by ganks/ wandering enemy champions who are unsuspected of it. Let alone this skill is NEVER maxed first, it's ALWAYS maxed LAST no matter what role she's taking. Even AP/support.

If you honestly think Nidalee is annoying now, compare to then and now and tell me that she needs more nerfs to begin with.

Just be glad they removed Bushwhack's ability to reveal wards. It still does, but only when an enemy champion/minion trips over the trap for the AoE vision. But even then it's still nothing game breaking.


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RagerDave

Senior Member

02-20-2013

Bushwack isnt the problem. The problem is that she can do everything decwntly and has no hard counters. She is too mobile, has good sustain, has cs farmimg abilliities, an ability that helps her against ganks, and when she transforms her one weakness, mana starvation, is no longer a problem. My solution is to have her abilities in cougar form cost mana just like the rest of the champions with transform effects.


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PerfidiousAlbion

Senior Member

02-20-2013

Bushwack is a little off-kilter right now because it saw no adjustments during the S3 penetration changes when it probably should have. She's also a bit of an issue because of the 'invisible spear' bug. If those two things get fixed then she'll be in a fine place.


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Silver salvation

Senior Member

02-20-2013

Didn't Lulu get nerfed because she was a "Jack of all trades" champion? except I don't ever recall he chunking for 1300 damage with glitter lance *shrugs* THANKFULLY nidalee was a glass cannon when she was chunking for 1300 hp, however what is the down fall of a glass cannon that can be caught?


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Rampant Poncho

Senior Member

02-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by TravísTouchdown View Post
Bushwack isnt the problem. The problem is that she can do everything decwntly and has no hard counters. She is too mobile, has good sustain, has cs farmimg abilliities, an ability that helps her against ganks, and when she transforms her one weakness, mana starvation, is no longer a problem. My solution is to have her abilities in cougar form cost mana just like the rest of the champions with transform effects.
She doesn't have any hard counters but she also doesn't hard counter anyone. Nidalee needs to farm a lot or get really fed to be of any use in the late game. The only champions with a transformation at level 6 are Nidalee, Jayce, and Elise. Jayce is the only one of those 3 that has mana costs attached to his transformed abilities. Elise and Jayce also can transform at level 1 and benefit from the attached passive immediately whereas Nidalee has to wait until level 6 to see any benefit. Nidalee's cougar form abilities also don't scale with any AP or AD whereas both Elise and Jayce have scaling with their transformed abilities.

Nidalee is completely fine where she is. AP Nidalee can nuke someone with a spear every couple seconds but they are slow moving projectiles that are blocked by minions and easily dodged by moving to the side. In order for her to kill someone she needs to poke them down to low health and then pounce/swipe/takedown the enemy to get a kill. She is susceptible to hard crowd control.


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Resther

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Senior Member

02-20-2013

Any nerfs to Nidalee are probably good ones at this point.

Personally, I'd like to see a nerf to nearly every part of her kit:

Human Q - Because invisible spears that can 2-shot nearly any champion aren't completely OP, right ?

Human W - Because she really needs an infinite number of traps that deal a ton of damage and grant vision forever.

Human E - Because she really needs to be able to heal herself to almost full hp when being played as an AP mid.

Cougar Form Pounce - Because she really needs to be able to escape any bad situation and be ungankable after she hits level 6, right ?

Please.
She's OP, and everyone knows it. She's completely dominating right now, and it's becoming extremely annoying seeing her every damn game. Seriously... Throw spears > Drop Traps > Run away > Heal > Repeat. It's not hard to see why she's so OP when she can do this constantly, with no risk involved.

Please nerf Nidalee, Riot.