PSA: A Message to pubs [ADAM]

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Basist

Senior Member

02-17-2013

Taking things out of context like only half of what I said to try and state your point? Yeah that is like the internet, way to go.


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LrdVprScrpn

Senior Member

02-17-2013

Why was OP downvoted so much? None of this is bad advice for ANY version of Proving Grounds.


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GrosPigeon

Senior Member

02-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrosPigeon View Post
I like how you feel the need to insult me to expose your arguments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Basist View Post
I don't have to insult you, but I felt like it. You are telling people what to do like you know everything, that's more offensive.
You gotta stop trying to think and use words at the same time. You're just making a fool of yourself.

So you don't feel like you need to insult me but you feel like you do?

Please go on.


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GrosPigeon

Senior Member

02-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by LrdVprScrpn View Post
Why was OP downvoted so much? None of this is bad advice for ANY version of Proving Grounds.
The internet doesn't love me


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What is a Wolf

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Senior Member

02-17-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by grospigeon View Post
here is the ultimate guideline to be a better pub in adam.

1) no, adam is not a typo and does not mean aram. Stop joining and dodging every single champion select.

2) stop asking for lux or nid when you're last pick. Also stop suggesting blitz as a ban.

3) use armor seals and mr glyphs. I know you need that +2ad from your glyphs to unlock your full potential as ashe, but the world is simply not ready.

4) don't go flash ignite. Ever. And don't even think of clarity.

5) use barrier.

6) stop going melee range when playing xerath or ashe

7) rush ad items when playing an ad carry. No, phantom dancer is not an ad item.

8) don't build manamune on ad carry. Just don't.

9) don't rush morello or grail as ap carry. Get deathcap and do actual damage.

10) don't rush void staff when your enemies have on average 35 mr. I know it's tempting but don't do it. Same goes for ad carries and lw.

11) stop picking blitzcrank, you're not good with him. Even if you have a skin.

12) don't play steve either.

13) stop picking karthus, zilean, gangplank, mundo, ryze, teemo, annie, shaco...

14) ... Pick sona

15) build bulwark


enjoy
this post has too many syllables!!! Apologize!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Warrrrax

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Senior Member

02-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Babycakes View Post
Manamune on Ashe? And take like 5 hours to charge it up?
You're way better off rushing Infinity Edge on ANY AD carry.

The question is why 'would' you rush Morello's or Athene's? Chalice does the job just fine. By rushing mana regen items, your poke does no damage and the enemies outscale you with their mr/lvl and items
As mentioned, Ashe can spam her Volley and charge a manamune really fast. But thats not the point. Tear allows her to spam stuff, mostly volley which sets up plays and adds strong poke damage. Without tear her ability to cast is greatly hampered. Its simply a nice thing that you can recoup the investment in tear with manamune giving you lots of AD in an efficient manner.
Ditto with many AD carries that also have decent pokes which you want to use. They wont be autoattacking THAT much early game in a typical aram. Giving them poke is way more important than boosting autoattack, at least early.
I do agree that after manamune an Inf Edge is well worth while since you have enough natural AD and AS for autoattacks to start ramping up.



Chalice gives you plenty of mana. Weve accepted that. So you are saying rush Deathcap instead of doing Athenes.

For 1600g you could get NLR.
For 1800g you can upgrade to Athenes.

Lets compare:


1) 80 AP.

2) 60 AP.
PLUS more mana so you can spam more. From 7.5 to 15 MP5, all with chalice effect.
PLUS the mana recovery on kill aspect, which is minor.
Plus a bit more Magic resist.
20% CDR!! That is HUUUGE. From 4% CDR to 24% = about 28% more spammage of abilities. Which means 28% more DPS for a spammer.

Clearly Athenes is way better than getting a NLR. Even if you could complete deathcap in 1 shot, its not really that efficient as a first item anymore... it breaks even now at least but due to base spell values, having mana, spammability and penetration are also very important factors.

After athenes you can decide on a case by case whether it should be Haunted Guise for mpen, vs deathcap or a void staff next.


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Sorne

Member

02-18-2013

Quote:
Ditto with many AD carries that also have decent pokes which you want to use. They wont be autoattacking THAT much early game in a typical aram. Giving them poke is way more important than boosting autoattack, at least early.
It is true that a large portion of your damage will be poke. If you spend your starting gold on mana regen, your poke will be weak. Mana regen lets you spam your skills more, but you lack burst and will miss alot.

Start a brutalizer, learn to manage mana (i mean seriously, you have a giant mana regen buff, it's not that hard), and make shots that will connect instead of randomly spamming in the general direction of your enemies. Brutalizer lets you hit like a truck early game and means that you actually have the damage to follow through on your teammates plays.

Late game muramana gives you some ad and magic damage on hit (yeah, like i need that when i can crit for 1k.) Brutalizer can be turned into ghostblade or BC depening on the situation, which both do great damage and have arpen.


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GrosPigeon

Senior Member

02-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrrrax View Post
Ditto with many AD carries that also have decent pokes which you want to use. They wont be autoattacking THAT much early game in a typical aram.

For 1600g you could get NLR.
For 1800g you can upgrade to Athenes.

Lets compare:


1) 80 AP.

2) 60 AP.
PLUS more mana so you can spam more. From 7.5 to 15 MP5, all with chalice effect.
PLUS the mana recovery on kill aspect, which is minor.
Plus a bit more Magic resist.
20% CDR!! That is HUUUGE. From 4% CDR to 24% = about 28% more spammage of abilities. Which means 28% more DPS for a spammer.

Clearly Athenes is way better than getting a NLR. Even if you could complete deathcap in 1 shot, its not really that efficient as a first item anymore... it breaks even now at least but due to base spell values, having mana, spammability and penetration are also very important factors.
Manamune is a very bad choice for AD carries. Even if you want to poke, because guess what? Their poke scales off AD. Mystic shot, volley, piltover peacemaker, name it. They all scale off AD and starting 2 dorans boots rather than tear longsword or tear boots allows you to CS better and poke for much greater damage as well as giving you sustain. If you are having mana problems, it doesn't mean you need to build manamune, it means you need to manage your mana better. Use mp5 masteries or get mm on your team if it's that big of an issue.

Manamune is not even cost effective to begin with, at 0 charges. At full charge it's barely "gold efficient" for the amount of AD it provides and the active effect is magic damage which can't crit and does not synergize with armor pen. Manamune/Muramana scale off mana and there is no reason to stack mana items on AD carries to make the unique passive worth it.

Manamune costs 2100 gold, which is a big investment early and does not upgrade into Sanguine or Infinity Edge as opposed to a BF sword which only costs 1550 gold. BF sword gives just as much AD as fully charged manamune and offers better upgrades for late game.


As for Grail vs NLR, some informations are missing and some are just plain wrong. Like how does 4% CDR (NLR) vs 24% CDR (Grail) = 28% more spammage?

Besides CDR is important but not as much as AP on AP carry. It simply is how the game goes. You don't always land all your spells everytime your cooldowns are up, when trying to harass, you will land a spell every once in a while, when your opponents are out of position and it's in those key moments that you will deal damage. %CDR is not directly %dps. The dps done by AP carries is inconsistent because it depends on those key moments to happen.

Rushing deathcap also allows you to win trades with your opponents by outbursting them. Deathcap's unique passive will also synergize with every AP item that you buy after.


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Warrrrax

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Senior Member

02-19-2013

You guys are either really bad at math or you aren't bothering to do any calculating which is probably the case. The point of theorycrafting is to use actual numbers to analyse the best way to go. Not just throw out random unsupported statements.

-------------
If one has 50% CDR if it was possible, this would mean 100% more spammage. 90% CDR would mean 10 times the spammage.

4% CDR == 1/0.96 = 4.1% more spammage.
24% CDR = 31.5% more spammage, hence the ~28%.
40% CDR = 67% more spammage.

-----------

There is this thing called Base Damage. Say you get Graves. At rank 2 buckshot you are doing 95 dmg plus 80% of the say 60 AD you have = 140ish damage.
According to you this is "no damage" and "weak poke". You can buy a tear for 700 and spam this like crazy.

You can buy 2 dorans and increase your damage to 156. According to you this is "much greater damage". With base regen of 7 MP5, thats 50 seconds to get 70 mana to get off 1 buckshot.

At rank 5 its 200 base plus 80% of the 80AD you have = 264. 2 dorans makes it 280. wow.


Mana management doesn't magically increase mana regen. It just means that you run around doing no damage since you have to save it for important moments.
Having enough mana doesnt mean you mindlessly spam and miss 90% of the time.


Manamune is perfectly fine if you have invested in a tear. By the time youd be ready to upgrade tear, you will likely have 2k mana. Otherwise get a BFSword instead! Nobody is forcing you to rush Manamune. At 2k mana, the 1400g that you spend to upgrade it will give you 60 AD, vs a BFSwords 45 AD for 1550.
Yes murumana damage is magical but its also FREE 150ish damage on every 1 target attack. So it doesnt penetrate? Its free!



I do concede that not every AP carry needs to have tons of CDR. Some dont have great spammable poke like Nidalee or Galio or Elise. An annie wont be spamming Q and will be holding all her spells for the Big Burst. In that case, burst is definitely way more important.

But most APs DO have spammable spells and CDR increases DPS. having mana to cast definitely increases DPS.


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GrosPigeon

Senior Member

02-19-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrrrax View Post
You guys are either really bad at math or you aren't bothering to do any calculating which is probably the case. The point of theorycrafting is to use actual numbers to analyse the best way to go. Not just throw out random unsupported statements.

-------------
If one has 50% CDR if it was possible, this would mean 100% more spammage. 90% CDR would mean 10 times the spammage.

4% CDR == 1/0.96 = 4.1% more spammage.
24% CDR = 31.5% more spammage, hence the ~28%.
40% CDR = 67% more spammage.

-----------

There is this thing called Base Damage. Say you get Graves. At rank 2 buckshot you are doing 95 dmg plus 80% of the say 60 AD you have = 140ish damage.
According to you this is "no damage" and "weak poke". You can buy a tear for 700 and spam this like crazy.

You can buy 2 dorans and increase your damage to 156. According to you this is "much greater damage". With base regen of 7 MP5, thats 50 seconds to get 70 mana to get off 1 buckshot.

At rank 5 its 200 base plus 80% of the 80AD you have = 264. 2 dorans makes it 280. wow.


Mana management doesn't magically increase mana regen. It just means that you run around doing no damage since you have to save it for important moments.
Having enough mana doesnt mean you mindlessly spam and miss 90% of the time.


Manamune is perfectly fine if you have invested in a tear. By the time youd be ready to upgrade tear, you will likely have 2k mana. Otherwise get a BFSword instead! Nobody is forcing you to rush Manamune. At 2k mana, the 1400g that you spend to upgrade it will give you 60 AD, vs a BFSwords 45 AD for 1550.
Yes murumana damage is magical but its also FREE 150ish damage on every 1 target attack. So it doesnt penetrate? Its free!



I do concede that not every AP carry needs to have tons of CDR. Some dont have great spammable poke like Nidalee or Galio or Elise. An annie wont be spamming Q and will be holding all her spells for the Big Burst. In that case, burst is definitely way more important.

But most APs DO have spammable spells and CDR increases DPS. having mana to cast definitely increases DPS.
You're not paying 1400g for 60AD. You're paying 2100g for 60AD and if you start 2 dorans then buy BF, you're paying 2500g for 65AD. Fully charged manamune is more cost effective than 2 dorans + BF for the amount of AD given but then BF upgrades into items that scale way better for AD carries. Their main source of damage does not come from their spells but from their auto-attacks.

The reason why you should go 2 dorans over tear is not only because skills like buckshot scale off it, it's because each of your basic attacks gain +20 damage. If you have a base damage of around 60 at lv3 (most ad carries have around that amount with masteries), your damage per auto-attack increases significantly. Roughly increasing your damage of your basic attacks by 33,3% at lv3. Also the extra health + health per hit gives you good survivability. 10 health per hit when you only have 80 AD is the equivalent of 12,5% lifesteal.

150 free magic like you didn't pay for the whole item...? Omg IE has free +50% crit damage because I only payed for the other stats.
The magic damage procs aren't free, you payed for them and they don't synergize with crit nor armor pen, you also payed for mana scaling passives that you won't even build into. Wow. Viable.

The main point isnt to poke with spells, it's to auto-attack. ADs have steroids and they deal high sustained damage. You have to build around that. If your point is that manamune is good on AD because you can spam spells then you just don't understand what playing an AD carry is about.

-------------

4% vs 24% cdr = 0,96 / 0,76 = 126,3%, so 26,3% more spammage. But ok, I suck at math.

When playing against non-retarded opponents that actually stay back out of cast range, you will be so happy you purchased CDR items. You will be sitting on your cooldowns. And when they finally overextend and get in range for a spell you will deal no damage.

If you can land every single spell every time your cooldowns are up, then rush CDR. But if you need to hold on your cooldown and wait for your ennemies to overextend to land a spell, then rush AP. This post was never about AP not ever getting CDR, just about not rushing it.