ADC Kennen Viable for S3, or is Caitlyn just generally better? *Numbers included

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Spexray

Senior Member

02-10-2013

I already posted some of this in GD at some point, but it got swallowed up, and more recently Giants Gaming are having some success with ADC Kennen, so I thought I'd repost this here:

KEEP IN MIND I PLAY BOTH AP AND AD KENNEN, AND THAT AP KENNEN IS ACTUALLY THE MID CHAMP THAT I PERFORM BEST WITH, AND THE FIRST CHAMP I EVER PLAYED. AS SERIOUSLY AS I TAKE AP KENNEN, THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT AP KENNEN. THIS THREAD DISCUSSES THE VIABILITY OF KENNEN AS AN AD CARRY.

Anyway...

The thing about AD Kennen is that once he builds hurricane, his W procs every other autoattack (provided there's always minions or other champs near your primary target), and since it can only proc on your primary target, that's an extra 80% of your AD every other attack. Some flaws in AD Kennen are: 1) Caitlyn does the almost same thing, with physical damage, from longer range, and actually has a couple SPELLS that scale with AD. Cait's passive also stacks up twice as fast if she's in a bush, so if she's in a bush, that's 50% extra every single attack instead of 80% every other. You can argue that Kennen's still does more outside a bush, as then they're both getting procs every other attack (I think) but again, his does magic damage, which is a negative with armor pen runes or items, and it's 80% of his AD, not 80% extra damage. Caitlyn's is only 50%, but it can crit. Let's ignore pen scaling and actual AD values for a minute, because you *******s are lucky I'm even doing this math:

Caitlyn (assuming she has Hurricane)
Infinity Edge+Phantom Dancer =55% crit, and 250% damage on crits.
Infinity Edge+Statikk Shiv=45% crit, and 250% damage on crits
Cait's passive=150% damage
Cait's passive if it crits (250% crit x 150% headshot): 375% of normal damage.<---Damn
With PD and IE, Cait Does ON AVERAGE 273.75% of her autoattack damage on a passive proc.
----NEW INFO: Average extra damage on a "per auto attack basis" (without Hurricane striking multiple targets or just without Hurricane: 28.9583% extra damage. Turns out that the fact that she gets her proc every 6th attack means Kennen's proc does more damage on average than Caitlyn's passive when neither champion have Hurricane.
With Statikk Shiv and IE, it does on average 251.25% of her AA damage, but it makes up some of the deficit with that weird lightning proc thing
(Note, if she's in a bush and is hitting 3 targets with hurricane, these are the average for every single attack.<---Damn)

Kennen (Assuming he has Hurricane)
Infinity Edge+Phantom Dancer =55% crit, and 250% damage on crits.
Infinity Edge+Statikk Shiv=45% crit, and 250% damage on crits
Kennen's W Passive at max rank=80% of Kennen's AD as magic damage
Kennen's W if he crits and procs (250% crit + 80% AD): 330% mixed damage, which is nothing to sneeze at, but still, not quite as high as Caitlyn's 375%.
Kennen with IE and PD: 262.5% mixed damage on average per proc, which IS a bit better than Cait with shiv, if you ignore the lightning proc, which you shouldn't, but I'm going to because I'm in college, so I like making bad decisions.
---NEW INFO: Average extra damage on a "per auto attack basis" (without Hurricane striking multiple targets or just without Hurricane: 32.5%. Kennen's more frequent procs means that without Hurricane, he actually does more damage on a "per auto-attack" basis than Caitlyn, and since Hurricane is generally a late-mid game pickup, Kennen may do more damage for most or all of the game.
Kennen with SS and IE: 247% mixed damage on average, then add in the shiv proc,
which does bonus STAB damage because Kennen is electric type. Oh wait, this isn't Pokemon. Still, there's something to be said for the lightning theme and how much cheaper it is compared to PD.

Now that we know Kennen in general does less than Caitlyn (Once they both have Hurricane), and we all know she has other AD scales and an escape that can go over walls. I suppose Kennen's covers more ground on a straight path, barring CC, and gives him MR and armor, which is a fun fact most people don't know about Lightning Rush. The downside to Lightning Rush though, is it turns off his autoattack, but you can just turn it off once you're in range anyway.(Fun fact number 2 is that Lightning Rush can be cancelled during any point in its duration, so you can AA as soon as you feel you'd rather do that than keep Rushing)

GIVEN ALL OF THIS, I AM A HUGE SUPPORTER OF THE CONCEPT OF AD KENNEN
He's strong enough in lane that he can farm safely and win trades if he has to (5th hit procs, throw it on a champ, press W, easily won trade with most carries). He's also intimidating enough in lane to actually get kills, it's not a lot of ad carries that have a built in stun, and if your support has a stun too, then the opponent is in trouble. For example, a very strong bot lane is Kennen and Leona. Leona CCs, then Kennen causes his own trouble by throwing a Q on the stunned target and dropping his other CDs for another stun, all while auto-attacking just as hard as any other ADC, and once your lane hits 6, that's suddenly FOUR STUNS YOU CAN DROP ON ONE PERSON. If you have a BF Sword by this point, you should not lose a duel with the opposing bot lane. On another note, he also never runs out of mana.

As for his attack range, which is usually the issue with "unviable" ADCs, he has the same range as (alphabetically): Corki, Draven, Ezreal, Miss Fortune, Tristana (at level 1), Twitch and Vayne. This range is 550 units, and the range on his W's active is 900, so if you can AA, you can press W, and then after 2 procs from 3 AAs and one W, then that's a stun.

In the late game, Kennen acts mostly just like any other ADC really, just rely on good positioning to keep you alive, and if someone makes a dangerous effort to get close, you can blow your ult, catching them out of position, land an easy Q for a second stun on the already stunned target, and help your team shred them. Alternatively, blow your ult and run away screaming, depending on what's appropriate. If no one DOES rush you and you're allowed to autoattack, well, you built ADC and you have a strong constant steroid every few attacks, so you hit like a truck (specifically a truck that's tied with Teemo for the highest base attack speed in the game), and you have an on-hit effect that can stun, so you're in pretty good shape. Keep in mind that no matter what else happens, at this point you are an AD Carry, it is your job to position safely and deal out massive damage with autoattacks, and you are filling the same slot in a fight as any "normal" ADC.

Supports that synergize well with AD Kennen:
Leona for Quadrastun at level 6-most successful support with AD Kennen in my opinion
Zyra apparently is a solid support, I've never seen it done with ADC Kennen but Giants Gaming did it.
Nami and Taric are both very strong because they can add an extra stun on top of Kennen's, and any champ with a heal or a shield can make Kennen's ability to win a minor trade with the opponent even stronger (trade winning=wait for 5th hit to proc, AA the other ADC, press W to detonate the mark, proceed to rofl away knowing you dealth out double the damage you took). They're fairly even IMO because while Taric improves the trade with an armor aura, Nami improves the trade with that AA buff thing.
Sona is strong because of her spammable cheap heal, she's plenty strong at doubling up the harass of the lane, and at level 6 she's another big stun champ.
Janna's strong for the same reason she's strong with Caitlyn. Give Kennen/Caitlyn a shield/AD boost before they trade with their bonus damage AA, then they hit extra hard and take less damage during the trade. Janna's super OP though, so this makes sense.
Alistar works very well for his CC and heal.
Someone in this thread said Jarvan support is pretty good, I can't personally vouch for it yet though.
Generally Kennen synergizes well with both sustainy/harassy supports AND high CC committed fight supports.

Counters to AD Kennen:
CAITLYN. Most of this thread discusses how Caitlyn is basically the better ADC in terms of damage. She will also poop all over your life in lane. At low ranks, her passive will do more damage than your W proc, even without critting, so she can trade just as well or better than you up until 6. You won't be allowed any bush presence because of her traps, her poke goes THROUGH minions, and she outranges you. Never ever ever pick Kennen against Caitlyn.
Soraka's kinda annoying too because she can silence you and stop the followup from your trade, and then she can heal up her ally. Really any support that can heal is a nuisance, unless your lane can win an all out fight with them.
Sona's a pretty big problem between her heal and her ability to shred health with her harass. Tack on a long counterstun at level 6 and you have a counter on your hand.

Who does Kennen counter?
Corki is easy. Don't get in an all out fight with him or he'll kill you easily, but he's very easy to harass and trade with.
Ezreal is even easier. Your trade is just generally stronger if you stay behind minions and wait for your proc. Land a stun and get a couple extra AAs. You can basically bully ezreal out of lane, and if you see him arcane shift, then you can take advantage during the cooldown and try to kill him.

In conclusion, with the advent of the Season 3 items, I believe that Kennen is viable as an AD Carry. As long as Caitlyn's damage with a Statikk Shiv is considered viable, the fact that Kennen can exceed that number with a Phantom Dancer should be enough to prove him viable in the damage sector. Now we also know that Electrical Surge is a stronger steroid than Headshot up until the point that Caitlyn builds Hurricane, making Kennen's actual output plenty viable. Lightning Rush is a powerful positioning, chasing, and escaping tool. Kennen's ultimate is comparable in use to Varus's, but better in every way and easier to land. Finally, Kennen can stun. In the words of Bombkirby (my duo partner), "Stuns win games, not slows, not knockups, not silences or blinds, but stuns. Stuns win games." Yes Caitlyn just overall wins in the traditional AD Carry judging categories (damage and range), but she will never be able to stun, and I believe that with that advantage, his damage is close enough to hers that he should be considered a viable pick in the AD Carry position.


tl;dr: There's nothing inherently wrong with AD Kennen, and in particular teams and situations he's even viable, such as Giants Gaming's success with Zyra support, or paired up with Leona as I mentioned earlier. You just have to be willing to accept that out there somewhere, a Caitlyn built exactly the same way, safely positioned herself a little bit further from the danger zone of the team fight, and still just generally did slightly more damage than you, but I'll bet she didn't stun anyone all match, and stuns win games.

Final Note: Please post about any experiences you have had WITH OR AGAINST AD Kennen. So far my sample pool consists only of games I've played as Kennen, and I'd love to hear about any experiences anyone else has had with the champ.

Double Final Note: Though when I originally made this thread, I was focusing on the absurd damage Caitlyn and Kennen can do with Hurricane, I just ran some numbers and AD Kennen actually does more damage than Caitlyn in a straight up single target Auto-Attack race (without Hurricane), just because his passive procs more frequently for higher damage.

Triple Kill!: @Morello (or any other red), you said you feel like AP Ezreal is kinda a wasted build because it basically does the same thing as AD Ezreal, but without Auto-Attacks. Is there any chance that AD Kennen will get some love for similar reasons? Maybe give Q a bonus AD scale? A lot of AP Kennens turn their Hextech Revolver into a Gunblade lategame anyway.


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Invictrix

Senior Member

02-10-2013

There isn't anything wrong with ad kennen (he was actually designed with ad in mind rather than ap) and he is better than some of the lower tier adcs, but he doesn't have Caitlyn's amazing auto attack range of 650 and instead has his own respectable range of 550(equal to miss fortunes and better than sivirs). This makes Caitlyn better at harassing.

Kennen does have his neat ultimate though which as much as I like Caitlyn ultimate is cooler and stronger than hers.


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Spexray

Senior Member

02-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Invictrix View Post
There isn't anything wrong with ad kennen (he was actually designed with ad in mind rather than ap) and he is better than some of the lower tier adcs, but he doesn't have Caitlyn's amazing auto attack range of 650 and instead has his own respectable range of 550(equal to miss fortunes and better than sivirs). This makes Caitlyn better at harassing.

Kennen does have his neat ultimate though which as much as I like Caitlyn ultimate is cooler and stronger than hers.
Was he actually designed as an ADC? It'd be pretty cool if Q scaled AD.

On another note, I included some notes on his attack range.


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CerealBoxOfDoom

Senior Member

02-10-2013

cait counters ezreal and probably corky.
kennen does not


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Spexray

Senior Member

02-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CerealBoxOfDoom View Post
cait counters ezreal and probably corky.
kennen does not
Kennen does pretty damn good against Ezreal in my experience. Kennen does POORLY against Caitlyn though, which is a plus for her.


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CerealBoxOfDoom

Senior Member

02-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spexray View Post
Kennen does pretty damn good against Ezreal in my experience. Kennen does POORLY against Caitlyn though, which is a plus for her.
ADC kennen is countered by QSS
ADC kennen is countered by range and CC
ADC kennen has no damage steroids
ADC kennen can 1v1 but he can't teamfight like cait can. Cait often doesnt have to chase you and doesnt have to enter a state where she cant attack to chase or escape.

That stun is kindof an issue but its not all that hard to deal with.

dunno about every assassin but adc kennen sure as hell can't do much about ahri.


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Spexray

Senior Member

02-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CerealBoxOfDoom View Post
1) ADC kennen is countered by QSS
2) ADC kennen is countered by range and CC
3) ADC kennen has no damage steroids
4) ADC kennen can 1v1 but he can't teamfight like cait can. Cait often doesnt have to chase you and doesnt have to enter a state where she cant attack to chase or escape.

That stun is kindof an issue but its not all that hard to deal with.

5) dunno about every assassin but adc kennen sure as hell can't do much about ahri.
1) When's the last time you've seen someone buy a QSS to deal with an AD Carry's stun? That's a lot of money for a mediocre amount of MR, which still helps you none against his primary damage source.
2) Any ADC at all is countered by "range and CC", in fact any champ at any phase of the game is "countered" by "range and CC", so this point is completely irrelevant and means nothing.
3) ADC Kennen does 80% extra of his AD every 5th attack without Hurricane and every other attack with Hurricane, and he already has the highest base attack speed in game. This one makes me think you didn't read the thread.
4) I covered your last point in the thread. You should keep in mind that while "chasing or escaping" NO ONE can autoattack. You have to stand still to AA. AS DISCUSSED, Caitlyn can jump over a wall, but Kennen can cover more ground in a straight line. This one PROVES to me that you didn't read the thread.
5) For one, ANY assassin worth their salt can one shot the ADC. It's the team's job to kill the assassin while they're out of position and the ADC's job to stay in a position difficult for an assassin to reach. I don't know what you think is special about Ahri (aside from having the sexiest splash art in game). I DO know that she's incredibly underpowered right now, and has to dive into close range (Kennen's ult range) to do any damage.


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Bombkirby

Senior Member

02-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CerealBoxOfDoom View Post
dunno about every assassin but adc kennen sure as hell can't do much about ahri.
Yeah Ahri isn't even a fraction of problem. She's one of the only SO CALLED "assassins" that can't bring people from 100% to 0% in like 3 seconds like an actual assassin like Talon or Leblanc. Not too mention she's going to be standing in a stun field the entire time she's slowly attempting to kill him as he heals up from her meager damage with Lifesteal.


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CerealBoxOfDoom

Senior Member

02-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spexray View Post
1) When's the last time you've seen someone buy a QSS to deal with an AD Carry's stun? That's a lot of money for a mediocre amount of MR, which still helps you none against his primary damage source..
the last time I saw it was the last time I saw adc kennen. Its not much now since it builds into a pretty good item.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spexray View Post
2) Any ADC at all is countered by "range and CC", in fact any champ at any phase of the game is "countered" by "range and CC", so this point is completely irrelevant and means nothing.
some moreso than others. kennen has no range and his escape skills aren't as solid

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spexray View Post
3) ADC Kennen does 80% extra of his AD every 5th attack without Hurricane and every other attack with Hurricane, and he already has the highest base attack speed in game. This one makes me think you didn't read the thread.
no, im not reading all that. i guess that counts for a steroid.. but it requires 3 targets for that math to work out and hes have to be in 550 range

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spexray View Post
4) I covered your last point in the thread. You should keep in mind that while "chasing or escaping" NO ONE can autoattack. You have to stand still to AA. AS DISCUSSED, Caitlyn can jump over a wall, but Kennen can cover more ground in a straight line. This one PROVES to me that you didn't read the thread.
we arent talking about the same thing. cait moves and is ready to go or fight or can go over walls. kennen not so much. instant gap versus fail retreat with a wasted speedboost

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spexray View Post
5) For one, ANY assassin worth their salt can one shot the ADC. It's the team's job to kill the assassin while they're out of position and the ADC's job to stay in a position difficult for an assassin to reach. I don't know what you think is special about Ahri (aside from having the sexiest splash art in game). I DO know that she's incredibly underpowered right now, and has to dive into close range (Kennen's ult range) to do any damage.
cait gets an instant gap (close enough) kennen doesnt. you cant case her into an unwarded bush either
ahri doesnt have to use her ult for damage which is the common misconception there. She has plenty of damage elsewhere. Her ult damage is more of a mage than assassin thing actually


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CerealBoxOfDoom

Senior Member

02-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bombkirby View Post
Yeah Ahri isn't even a fraction of problem. She's one of the only SO CALLED "assassins" that can't bring people from 100% to 0% in like 3 seconds like an actual assassin like Talon or Leblanc. Not too mention she's going to be standing in a stun field the entire time she's slowly attempting to kill him as he heals up from her meager damage with Lifesteal.
ahri kills kennen easily. Even if he somehow survives she can escape or just charm to waste his stun and kill him with her abilities off cooldown. Kennen has a better shot as onhit or mage against ahri

Edit: also ahri is a hybrid mage assassin. She doesnt do excessive damage, she does enough and makes sure it happens. She is much harder to counter than leblanc or talon.

Edit again: lost what i was typing...

anyways cait can do more when ahri gets the drop on her than kennen can. Kennen can't afford to get ambushed ever. The QSS i mentioned earlier was just 1 example of how he gets countered


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