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Magic Resist version of Warden's Mail

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Zer0blizzard

Senior Member

02-08-2013

Considering that 2x cloth armor makes it, and Chainvest is quite similar to Negatron Cloak in terms of effectiveness per gold (although Negatron almost exclusively builds into AP offensive/late game defensive items), there is a gap in terms of anti-AP tank builds, especially considering how common bursty APs tend to be (Brand, Cassio, Fizz, Morde, Ahri, Veigar).

2x Null-Magic Mantles (obviously), but I'm still puzzled on what the passive should be, considering that there is no "attack speed" like mechanic explicitly for APs.


EDIT:
GOT RID OF THE DREADED MICROSILENCE IDEA; NOW PROPOSING A STACKING MR PER SPELL/DOT PER SECOND IDEA.


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JustMyBassCannon

Recruiter

02-08-2013

1. Hard CC is never going to be put on items
2. Riot avoids mirror items unless they have an explicit need for them (like Void Staff and Last Whisper).
3. There's still good MR to be bought.


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Rainsonyou

Member

02-09-2013

Just waiting for my FoN to come back to me... Some day...


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Zer0blizzard

Senior Member

02-11-2013

Quote:
JustMyBassCannon:
1. Hard CC is never going to be put on items
2. Riot avoids mirror items unless they have an explicit need for them (like Void Staff and Last Whisper).
3. There's still good MR to be bought.


There's Negatron, Null Magic and Aegis. For AD champions (bruisers, tanks and ADCs), the three items they usually buy for MR is
Aegis (tanks),
Maw (bruisers/sometimes ADCs) and
Guardian Angel (sometimes bruisers/usually ADCs).

For armor items, there's
Aegis,
Guardian's Angel,
Atma's,
Randuin's,
Thornmail,
Iceborn Gauntlet,
Frozen Heart.
These armor items are extremely common.

I count 3 commonly used MR items to 8 commonly used Armor items.

Good luck explaining that.

EDIT: As for your hard CC on items, you're probably right, but hard CC's don't matter AS MUCH if they're for incredibly short durations. Then it would only screw over robotic burst APs and force them to take 2 seconds instead of 1 to burst someone down.


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CrazedPorcupine

Senior Member

02-11-2013

Actually, cost per unit of defensive stat is teh exact same between chain vest and Negatron cloak (18 gold per defensive unit) Negatron cloak just provides more MR than Chainvest Provides Armor. ANd Negatron cloak builds into probably the most UNDERRATED MR item in the game, QSS (Quicksilver sash: Dat CLeanse)


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67chrome

Senior Member

02-11-2013

With magic resistance you already have Tenacity, a Spell-Shield, an AoE Magic Resistance Aura, and/or a Cleanse to choose from though. I'd say that's better than or at least equal to attack speed slows, 10% less auto-attack damage, and thorns for auto-attackers. Most of those are pretty solid against AP champions regardless of whether they deal sustained damage or burst damage as well - against sustained AP champions like Singed, Teemo, and Amumu you can absorb a fairly nasty effect even with the more burst-blocking banshee's veil.

I'd like something like Warden's Mail for AD Casters though. I understand it's nice to have a limited number of counter-build options for some champions, but when you run into a champion like Garen that's going to shred your armor with an ability that doesn't proc thornmail or warden's mail and finish you off with magic damage that scales off your health were he can pop spell-shields with a silence it gets pretty irritating. There's plenty of bruisers that operate on similar mechanics that more or less laugh in the face of defensive uniques. All the effects that are good against abilities are tied to magic resistance, and all the prominent armor items generally have a passive that only effects auto-attacks.


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JustMyBassCannon

Recruiter

02-11-2013

Quote:
Zer0blizzard:
There's Negatron, Null Magic and Aegis. For AD champions (bruisers, tanks and ADCs), the three items they usually buy for MR is
Aegis (tanks),
Maw (bruisers/sometimes ADCs) and
Guardian Angel (sometimes bruisers/usually ADCs).

For armor items, there's
Aegis,
Guardian's Angel,
Atma's,
Randuin's,
Thornmail,
Iceborn Gauntlet,
Frozen Heart.
These armor items are extremely common.

I count 3 commonly used MR items to 8 commonly used Armor items.

Good luck explaining that.

EDIT: As for your hard CC on items, you're probably right, but hard CC's don't matter AS MUCH if they're for incredibly short durations. Then it would only screw over robotic burst APs and force them to take 2 seconds instead of 1 to burst someone down.

I'm not "probably" right, I AM right. Riot has stated they aren't going to put hard CC on items EVER. There are champions who are balanced around not being able to use hard CC.


As to your calculation, first of all, you're ignoring Mercurial Scimitar, Wit's End, Banshee's Veil and Mercury Treads. No, they're not always going to be purchased, but if they need it, they're there.

Second, Magic Resist has always been in lower values than Armor, because Magic damage is primarily done in bursts, and Physical damage is primarily done in DPS. What that means, balance-wise, is that it's much harder to negate physical damage than magic damage, because magic damage has a much larger gap between each attack compared to physical damage. Yes, there are two or three champions on each side that deal AD burst and AP DPS, but the normal format of damage is why MR is less than Armor.


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Zer0blizzard

Senior Member

02-12-2013

Quote:
JustMyBassCannon:
I'm not "probably" right, I AM right. Riot has stated they aren't going to put hard CC on items EVER. There are champions who are balanced around not being able to use hard CC.


As to your calculation, first of all, you're ignoring Mercurial Scimitar, Wit's End, Banshee's Veil and Mercury Treads. No, they're not always going to be purchased, but if they need it, they're there.

Second, Magic Resist has always been in lower values than Armor, because Magic damage is primarily done in bursts, and Physical damage is primarily done in DPS. What that means, balance-wise, is that it's much harder to negate physical damage than magic damage, because magic damage has a much larger gap between each attack compared to physical damage. Yes, there are two or three champions on each side that deal AD burst and AP DPS, but the normal format of damage is why MR is less than Armor.


I couldn't find riot's statement (a quick googling) that there would never be hard CCs on items. I have heard about Riot's belief that there will never be a mana drain ability/item/etc., but I can't find that either. Considering how similar those two statements are, I have some reason to believe you. However, please look for the source, just so you can convince me.

I stand corrected on Mercury Treads, Banshee's Veil (uncommonly situational but ok) and Wit's End (uncommonly situational, but ok). Almost nobody builds mercurial scimitar because its situations of value are so rare.

There are a heck of a lot of magic DPS champions; basically any longish range champion that has a low cooldown ability. I'm not talking ryze; I'm talking katarina, karthus, nidalee, xerath, galio, etc. They can kick out 100+ damage every 15 seconds indefinitely with Chalice of Harmony, provided they land their skill shots. With an accuracy of 33%, their lane opponent better have ganks, more damage, more teammates or a heck of a lot of health potions.

Any way you put it, magic resist isn't a crazy thing to build, but it doesn't have a lot of options for magic resist exclusive items. There is no equivalent to Thornmail/Frozen Heart/Warden's Mail for MR. All of those items are either stupidly cheap for great defense or expensive (Frozen Heart) with a great anti AD passive.


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JustMyBassCannon

Recruiter

02-12-2013

Quote:
Zer0blizzard:
I couldn't find riot's statement (a quick googling) that there would never be hard CCs on items. I have heard about Riot's belief that there will never be a mana drain ability/item/etc., but I can't find that either. Considering how similar those two statements are, I have some reason to believe you. However, please look for the source, just so you can convince me.

I'm not that much of a lurker, and I can't find the person who had the original quote, otherwise I would
Quote:
Zer0blizzard:
I stand corrected on Mercury Treads, Banshee's Veil (uncommonly situational but ok) and Wit's End (uncommonly situational, but ok). Almost nobody builds mercurial scimitar because its situations of value are so rare.

Seen it in at least 3 games since the last patch, it's the MR equivalent of Atma's Impaler, except more popular because it's defensively and offensively better.
Quote:
Zer0blizzard:
There are a heck of a lot of magic DPS champions; basically any longish range champion that has a low cooldown ability.

Listing
Quote:
Zer0blizzard:
I'm not talking ryze;

Who is the best definition of magic DPS actually, considering his rotation takes 6 or 7 spells before he'll stop.
Quote:
Zer0blizzard:
I'm talking katarina,

8 seconds on Q and E, 4 seconds on W, she doesn't do DPS, just chipping away HP in bursts
Quote:
Zer0blizzard:
karthus,

If you're predictable and don't have boots
Quote:
Zer0blizzard:
nidalee,

Nope, mostly burst unless AD
Quote:
Zer0blizzard:
xerath,

Still burst
Quote:
Zer0blizzard:
galio,

Still burst
Quote:
Zer0blizzard:
etc. They can kick out 100+ damage every 15 seconds indefinitely with Chalice of Harmony, provided they land their skill shots.

That's 7+ DPS, borrowing your RGN. Compare to Ryze or Diana, two of the only magic DPS champions in the game. Or even AP/On-Hit Teemo.

Even if you meant to use much higher figures, none of those champions have anything on Diana and Ryze for magic DPS, and AP Teemo runs a close 3rd.
Quote:
Zer0blizzard:
With an accuracy of 33%, their lane opponent better have ganks, more damage, more teammates or a heck of a lot of health potions.

With an accuracy of 33%, I'm going to survive the lane easily with 1-2 potions and higher accuracy.
Quote:
Zer0blizzard:
Any way you put it, magic resist isn't a crazy thing to build, but it doesn't have a lot of options for magic resist exclusive items. There is no equivalent to Thornmail/Frozen Heart/Warden's Mail for MR. All of those items are either stupidly cheap for great defense or expensive (Frozen Heart) with a great anti AD passive.

There isn't an equivalent for Thornmail, FH or Warden's/Randuin's because they're not necessary.


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Zer0blizzard

Senior Member

02-13-2013

You spent a lot of time saying that I'm wrong on every point with "IMO" as your sole reason.

Nobody buys Mercurial Scimitar. It's not in any mobafire/solomid/lolking top rated guide for any champion, and it's not a commonly built item on any champion according to LOLKing. Meanwhile, Atma's is practically common.