@Riot'sLoreWriters: Please do not write such heavy-handed exposition

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Koelio

Senior Member

02-13-2013

I actually think page 4 was perfect. It was very human. I like how it showed her determination and what her dreams were as a child. Yes, it may have been a bit blunt, but aren't we also like that when we stumble upon something that reminds us of a lost loved one?

I feel it added depth to her character and opens up possibilities for further development. What happened that resulted in her brother dying? Is a Noxian agent responsible? Will he return as a Shadow Isles champ or perhaps his body was reanimated like Sion's?


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Dracorya

Senior Member

02-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xulsigae View Post
It's certainly not fun to read something that comes across as using your intellect as a weapon. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar (and more with rotting meat than honey but you get my meaning). Your love of lore gets lost in your presentation of it.
Several people on these forums have tried in the past to tell him this, but he feels banging the pot with the spoon as loudly and obnoxiously as possible is the way to go.

Hence some of us have taken to ignoring him.


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Xulsigae

Senior Member

02-13-2013

Oh I know. I'm hoping something positive comes of it, but if not, then mine eyes shall not register his or her presence on these forums.


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Eserine

Senior Member

02-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vashos View Post
For someone who runs his/her mouth about writing quality you're seriously over-focused on technicalities. Writers have editors for a reason (and may I remind you it's the writers *not* the editors that make the money and are the social superstars). An English professor is not always an artist in the literary context, but they might make nice support staff.

I read a book last summer about the Northwest Passage (The Man Who Ate His Boots, iirc) and there was a line in it that I find very applicable to you, Eserine. I don't recall the exact words, but basically the author described one man in the book as being destined to be ignored by history not because he didn't have anything to offer or because he wasn't remarkable in some way...but because nobody liked him.

You might have some good questions and legitimate concerns about the lore, but by blustering around with the holier-than-thou/intellectually superior air you've been presenting to the people on this forum (including the professionals at Riot) you're only digging yourself into a hole and causing people to shut you down before you even get started. If you were sufficiently creative on an independent level this might not matter, because you'd go on to create your own IP or find your own answers and be the next League of Legends, but (and I'm new to this forum so if I've missed it forgive me) you haven't presented any suggestions here as to how the lore can be bettered. You just point out all you think is wrong with it.
Welcome to the lore forum Vashos!

As you seem more interested in talking about me than the ideas I put forward, allow me to give you a brief introduction to what I am attempting to demonstrate with this thread.

I joined the lore forum dismayed at the poor quality of the champion biography remakes of Warwick, Katarina, and Soraka. I was shocked at the dysfunction displayed in the AMA threads, because many sweet, gentle, and nice players with good ideas were being shut-out from response or consideration from the lore team, and looking further back through the forum and operational history of the lore department under the new head of the lore department, this seemed an endemic problem. The lore team were only looking for compliments instead of listening to players, and our involvement or attempts to improve the game were futile!

So I created a thread on this subject: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2652320 (which I then abandoned together with the lore forum, because the remaining players who hadn't left or realized the implications of what was happening only wanted to talk about how I was saying things to avoid substantive discussion of the problems with the lore).

So I created this thread to ask that the executives fire the lore team

and then returned to inform the remaining lore-forum users that they did not have to use the lore forum anymore

and now that IronStylus has arrived, as he announced he would, I can show players once again the perils of wasting their time here (or else begin a constructive conversation with Runaan about the lore direction, which I rated as an extreme improbability). Riot does not want detailed feedback, or even any shallow responses that are not first couched in fawning adoration, because they place their own feelings over a desire to improve their craftsmanship or give their players good content.

As to your speculation as to my motivations, I am not interested in fame or fortune. I am already wealthy, I have many great friends, and I do not care what other people think about me. If these are your motivations in engaging with the lore team I doubt that you will meet with much success, unless you are forming a comprehensive "what not to do" list.

Instead I am concerned with the social effect of the lore quality upon the people who play the game (and those many who play this game to the exclusion of all other activities), and the future creative works of those who now play the game as they are influenced by what the game or the lore teaches them. It is dismaying to see many defenders of the lore team in this thread being unable to form complete sentences or utilize basic principles of reading comprehension to meet my criticisms, and as LoL grows this effect may accelerate within the population as quality storytelling is further supplanted by Yordle-fights and features like the release of Elise.

As I am involved in important medical research, I am unfortunately unable to begin my own videogame company, although if given infinite time and resources to do so I would want to make a game almost exactly like LoL gameplay-wise, to the extent that it would be a violation of international copyright law, much like I am not allowed to sell a manufactured food product with an identical appearance, construction, and ingredients to the public and only change the packaging (and to compete with my hypothetical product, LoL already exists with a high degree of name-recognition in absorbing the MOBA-playing fantasy market demographic through getting their first).

As you may note from reading the threads I have linked to in this post (or reviewed my earlier suggestion at a lore playtesting group here in this thread), because of this unfortunate reality I have made a number of constructive suggestions for improving the game through my time in the forums, which will not be listened to. I was drawn to do this because LoL offers its developers (though not its helpful players) the opportunity to be gods, fully in control of an entire universe, where in contrast often creative problem-solving in science does not lead to the desired end for the researcher due to the limitations of our tools and technology. Worldcrafting or game design is under no such constraints.

However. where science prevents me from taking the opportunity to replace LoL, it has also given me the potential ability to destroy them with all that I have learned about their operations and shortcomings in my time among their posts and interviews and conference reports if I can find a worthy successor to their title as most played videogame in the history of the world. The point where I would attempt to help Riot has ended. I am both a medicine and a poison, and they have allowed me to build-up within their systems unaddressed for far too long.

Or to put it another way:

BA HA HA HA HA HAAAA!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Eredale View Post
At least he was trying at first... Come now, you can be more subtle than that. Besides, if I'm destined to be an idiot, I'd rather be a happy, cheerful idiot who is full of hope, rather than a 'scholar' who demands that people be fired and a massive product that has 4 years of history (which he gets free of charge, of all things) to change drastically to 'alleviate his desires and concerns'.

You sound like the type of person who would crusade for racial representation in the League.
I wrote that Voltaire suggested that all optimists were idiots within his work Candide, not that I felt that way (unless that you think that I am dead Frenchman from the 18th century).

I'm aware of your preferences 1Erendale, you acknowledge that the lore is broken and that you are disenfranchised:

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...68329#34272279

but your solution is to just give up fighting because "free bad lore is better than no lore", and I disagree. Riot cannot survive if no player or investor gives them money, and if they do not deserve that money, as a diseased vehicle of social decay, then they should not survive, and we should help them to their end by abandoning them to their self-indulgence and finding a better game to support.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xulsigae View Post
It's certainly not fun to read something that comes across as using your intellect as a weapon. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar (and more with rotting meat than honey but you get my meaning). Your love of lore gets lost in your presentation of it.
I do not post for your amusement, nor does one ever catch any "flies" within the lore forum, irregardless of chosen bait ingredients. That metaphor would only work if nice players with serious alteration suggestions had ever successfully effected a change within the game's storyline

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eserine View Post
...
Players asked that Jayce's lore be changed so that Viktor wasn't portrayed as a villain and they did it anyway. Players asked that Warwick not fail in an ambush to take Soraka's life essence and they did it anyway. Players asked that Lux's ultimate not be changed in name and they did it anyway. We are afforded no opportunity to defuse the errors Riot makes, and Riot doesn't care.
...
which they have not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdy51 View Post
I will take a look at the musical because it does sound interesting.

Also, yes I am well aware that optimist protagonist of Candide is dashed to pieces by how ****-sack the world is. However the full scope of the book cannot be read shortened. Many points are made beyond what's on the surface. Voltaire weaves those points into the text in a well-written way. That's why I suggested it as a reading. Reading the wiki doesn't do the book the justice it deserves.

As to why I called myself an optimist, that's because it reveals a bit of who I am. No real arguements there. Like Eredale stated, it makes the days a bit more bright. :P
I have read Candide and seen it performed multiple times (once even as an avant garde post-apocalyptic puppet show experience).

I would assume that your optimism has limits, you do not spend every single dollar that you make or is given to you on lottery tickets with the expectation that you will just be able to buy food or shelter for yourself after you win millions of dollars. When you want clothing you do not stand outside and wait for some to fall out of an airplane passing by, you do not attempt to catch machine-gun bullets with your teeth for fun under the assumption that you will be fast enough to stop them from hitting you, and likewise I am now proposing that expecting the lore to improve is a similar silly and unlikely idea that should fall under the same category of behaviors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracorya View Post
Several people on these forums have tried in the past to tell him this, but he feels banging the pot with the spoon as loudly and obnoxiously as possible is the way to go.

Hence some of us have taken to ignoring him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xulsigae View Post
Oh I know. I'm hoping something positive comes of it, but if not, then mine eyes shall not register his or her presence on these forums.
Ignore away, I am simply trying to help you.


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1Eredale

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Senior Member

02-13-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eserine View Post
Welcome to the lore forum Vashos!

BA HA HA HA HA HAAAA!

Wow. Really? Just... wow. Well guys, I think I'm beat. No one wants to pick a fight with a proffessional cancer-curing neuroscientist who has the ability to destroy Riot, not me, no way.

I'll just back off slowly, and hope that the blazing fury of his pixels on my screen won't annihilate my favourite game company sooner than they buff AP Ezreal. Peace out.


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Xulsigae

Senior Member

02-13-2013

All hail Eserine! May he spare us in his crusade against the lore department of Riot.

"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it."
Voltaire was an interesting bloke.


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Eserine

Senior Member

02-14-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Eredale View Post
Wow. Really? Just... wow. Well guys, I think I'm beat. No one wants to pick a fight with a proffessional cancer-curing neuroscientist who has the ability to destroy Riot, not me, no way.

I'll just back off slowly, and hope that the blazing fury of his pixels on my screen won't annihilate my favourite game company sooner than they buff AP Ezreal. Peace out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xulsigae View Post
All hail Eserine! May he spare us in his crusade against the lore department of Riot.

"I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it."
Voltaire was an interesting bloke.
I'm not claiming that I can destroy them, but I am claiming that I can try. Many of Riot's adapted platforms (like Hadoop) are yet to be fully iterated into their total potential productivities, and in being stupid without foresight in their rushed initial coding Riot's "tech. debt" and user-interface idiosyncrasies leave them vulnerable over the coming years to people who might prepare their product or development cycle or stylistic output better, and I am certainly able and willing to give a lot of advice in that respect.


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xxSylphxx

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

02-14-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eserine View Post
Hello Runaan, can you talk more about the decision to use unironic 1950's American police slang in Quinn's preview and how you guys saw that making a "more awesome, more accessible and more engaging" story for readers in an ancient fantasy setting? Did you see a risk in setting up an archaic language-usage parallel with such a phrase where one would not be very likely to reoccur between two civilizations at random, potentially taking readers out of the story?

Can you discuss the consideration you guys gave to the societal impact of large amounts of paper being available in a pre-industrial agrarian society (where the parchment marks in the JoJ and the Nidalee-watermarked forums were always identical, to suggest to the reader a single, magically-erasing scroll exclusively owned by an elite few masters of magic) and how this decision on papercraft might or might not technologically warp Demacian culture past recognition for readers expecting or imagining something consistent with the armor and weapons and titles used by the Demacian characters present in the game?

Are you able to tell us about the development of Demacian artistic techniques to the point of modern-quality renderings instead of works more closely resembling the Bayeux tapestry (assuming of course that Quinn didn't single-handedly invent the complex list of modern art techniques she uses suddenly and taught these to other Demacians and the JoJ writers if they weren't simply using magic to form images in their reports as one might first assume).

In recent claims by a lore writer on the lore forum that Quinn maintains contact with her parents, what specifically made you guys decide to abandon Lux's history in portraying a martial state that valued and encouraged absolute loyalty in the conscripts and enlisted troops, to effectively become the only parent and ideological authority to the fighters it trained to serve the country? Does casting aside such ideas work together with your decisions about the 'more-simplified' motivations of other states within Runeterra in recent champion biographies like Ziggs or Viktor, and how do you see this move being understood politically by young, gaming Democratic activists in the People's Republic of China and similar countries around the world?

Are players ever going to get to know why a medieval peasant girl (however brilliant) was afforded the opportunity pre-ennoblement to master reading and writing, simultaneously with legendary-weapons and animal training, to an extent that she surpasses professional modern writers in understanding of the proper application of grammatical rules? Once again how do you see this contrasting with the historical peasantries and serfdoms of Europe that readers might be expecting where it was rare to see a single book within one's lifetime and "childhood" or "adolescence" was not an established concept? Does Demacia have a public educational system for country peasants, and how would parents relying on children for labor without the benefit of modern work-saving devices (in Quinn's case the family having already lost a child) continue to meet basic subsistence requirements? If Demacia is no longer meant to be understood as a medieval fantasy setting can you describe the methods of birth-control (magical or folk remedy) that country-people use in the case that Quinn's mother and father were forced into a life of serial theft and prostitution in order to continue living?

GIven such aforestated misunderstandings of grammatical rules, do you feel that you and the other members of the lore team have the capacity to relate to the portion of players who are disappointed in seeing a massive potential in the lore for this game to become something really unique and special (artistically or politically), only to have those hopes dashed as you and your colleagues continue to develop the IP in another direction stylistically, aiming for a different segment of the public?

Before joining Riot did you ever personally interact with an imaginary world or IP you hoped might become awesome only to inexplicably watch it crumble to dust before your eyes, to the extent that it no longer became remotely enjoyable, even as an object of disdain, pity, or ridicule between you and your likewise-involved acquaintances? How do you feel that this experience shaped your artistic development?

Thanks for answering players on the forums! It means a lot.

Thank goodness I clicked the link to show this post. Pretty much exactly what I was thinking. I applaud your entire history of appeal for change, and I find it really sad that so few people understand the messages you're trying to portray.