@Riot'sLoreWriters: Please do not write such heavy-handed exposition

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Zerglinator

Senior Member

02-10-2013

Do not write heavy-handed exposition, but please tell us exactly why champions join the League.

EDIT: Knew I'd get downvotes for this. Still had to be said.


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Melancholy Exile

Senior Member

02-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotRunaan View Post
Hey guys, thanks for the feedback.

While I do agree that the writing on page four could have possibly been handled in a more subtle manner that matched the methodology of the rest of the piece, I'll defend my position to include the context of her brother's death. You're right, something like this could have simply been included in her text bio (and it actually is), but one of the goals for Quinn's journal was to convey as much about her character as possible to players, and that includes players who may never read a text bio at all. In addition, the piece already has several subtleties to the main plot, as mentioned before. Honestly, during the writing process, I was a bit concerned that readers might have a hard time following it in a few places (this has actually proven somewhat true). I deliberately chose to be heavy-handed with some detail to avoid too much of that problem.

Could I have done it the other way around? Heavy-handed with plot details, light touch on deeper character motivation? Probably. Should I have omitted the information about Caleb's death and its impact on Quinn? Personally, I don't believe so. Heavy-handed as I might have been with it, I'm glad that players are very clearly aware of what Quinn's brother meant to her. Hopefully, the majority can see how it informs the rest of her character overall.

Again, thanks for the feedback. I'll keep all of this in mind for the next piece I tackle.
My apologies, Runaan; I'd never really considered that particular concern. That really makes very clear why you took the approach you chose to.

Can I just make clear though that I never actually suggested omitting that part. I simply thought, in my ignorance of the above point, that you seemed to have taken a very blunt approach when it was going to be stated in equally frank terms in her bio. Naturally, that makes perfect sense when you want to make sure that all players have the same level of understanding, even if they never actually read said character biography.

So yeah: Thanks for stopping by and I very much appreciate you shedding some light on this.


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MisterTitanic

Member

02-10-2013

lol. Riot is so bad at the basics of writing that ff8 sheds tears in jealousy


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Redeemed In Fire

Senior Member

02-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterTitanic View Post
lol. Riot is so bad at the basics of writing that ff8 sheds tears in jealousy
Somehow I doubt you could do better...


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Chibodee Crocket

Senior Member

02-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotRunaan View Post
Hey guys, thanks for the feedback.

While I do agree that the writing on page four could have possibly been handled in a more subtle manner that matched the methodology of the rest of the piece, I'll defend my position to include the context of her brother's death. You're right, something like this could have simply been included in her text bio (and it actually is), but one of the goals for Quinn's journal was to convey as much about her character as possible to players, and that includes players who may never read a text bio at all. In addition, the piece already has several subtleties to the main plot, as mentioned before. Honestly, during the writing process, I was a bit concerned that readers might have a hard time following it in a few places (this has actually proven somewhat true). I deliberately chose to be heavy-handed with some detail to avoid too much of that problem.

Could I have done it the other way around? Heavy-handed with plot details, light touch on deeper character motivation? Probably. Should I have omitted the information about Caleb's death and its impact on Quinn? Personally, I don't believe so. Heavy-handed as I might have been with it, I'm glad that players are very clearly aware of what Quinn's brother meant to her. Hopefully, the majority can see how it informs the rest of her character overall.

Again, thanks for the feedback. I'll keep all of this in mind for the next piece I tackle.
Problem is why don't know how much he meant to her because no example is given on how she has changed since the incident. She is writing a diary entry down which could have easily been about a plant or a great tasting sandwich. Unless the actual bio goes in and explains what kind of impact it had the whole thing about her brother would be pointless.

Not going to comment until I see the bio but I sure hope it isn't as bad as the Kat lore rework or some of the other recent lore that has come out like the pathetic lore that came with Kayle's new skin. ''Kayle lost her wings and went home, she got new metal wings and defeated all the evil on her planet, the end.''


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BRAVEYpl0x

Senior Member

02-10-2013

I agree with OP's original point: it feels a little too much like Quinn is telling me about her life in an unnatural way. It seems like the Quinn creative team is trying to deliver lore in a more organic way (reading someone's journal), which i think is fantastic! But I feel it's counterproductive to then have the writing in that diary be so contrived. I say: leave in-depth backstory in the champion lore page, and save this awesomely immersive format more for exploring personality and character development.


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Alex3omg

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Senior Member

02-10-2013

I agree that the brother thing was kind of off.

It could have been conveyed differently, like maybe an image of his simple grave, maybe with her crying near it, although then we wouldn't be sure who he was it adds some depth to her story and mystery. Who was this 'caleb' and why does she care that he died? Well maybe he was her bf or friend or whatever, that part isn't as important- she lost someone, that's the point. As for her commoner background you could have had a letter from garen or jarvan saying something like, "you're pretty good for a peasant" (though perhaps phrased in a more tactfully condescending way)

Honestly I think the 'a picture's worth a thousand words' thing would have been perfect here.


but uh, are these images going to be released in another way? I think it's pointless to only post them on the forum where hardly anyone will see. Have them in game like the joj used to be- "a new page discovered" etc. And the main page. Speaking of which, obligatory "i want the joj back." There's no reason why we can't have that AND this sort of stuff, and why this release teaser stuff doesn't happen for every single champion. Personally I think an intro video would be the ideal way to show lore, like a cartoon or w.e, maybe a few minutes.. even fighting games get that for their excuseplots.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RCIX View Post
Somehow I doubt you could do better...
He's not a professional writer so that doesn't matter.

I think he's a little harsh but honestly the lore could use a lot of work. They've had over a year and a half to come up with a new way to get the lore to the players and it seems like their decision up until this champ was to not do so at all. I bet you 90% of players don't even know that 'nunu' isn't a yeti.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerglinator View Post
Do not write heavy-handed exposition, but please tell us exactly why champions join the League.
Oh god and this. I don't really get why 'the most important decision in this person's life' is being left out of their story. Sometimes you can assume but, really, it should be straight up written down. Malzahar wants an audience to sell his cult to, Singed wants to try his chemical weapons out, Jax wants a challenge... Nami is looking for a moonstone? Or did she already do that..


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NamKim

Senior Member

02-10-2013

Be nice, this is just an experiment. Hopefully this is a sign that more lore is to come.

@RiotRunaan
The connection between J4, Quinn, Garen, Talon, and Demancia is what's very awesome about the diary. For me, lore is not just a bio. It is created when things interact with each other. Viktor and Jayce's conflict is lore, Diana and Leona's conflict is lore, even Rengar and Kha'zix is lore. When champions interact with each other, this is when lore is created. Without this, champions are just cool game units instead of characters and League of Legends is just a name of a video game, not this substitute for war and conflict meant to prevent another Rune War.

I really hope that League of Legends is getting back into the lore at full force soon. I have friends who believe the lore is dead. By dead, I don't mean it doesn't have a creative design team or anything like that. By dead, I mean, it's already too late. I don't believe the lore is dead, yet. However, once the lore dies, I apologize but the people who write the lore would just become parasites to Riot Games and should be removed. Bio's should be removed and the creative design team should purely focus on creating champions with fun kits.

I DO NOT want League of Legends to go down this route. But I am always curious why it seems like Riot Games neglect so many aspects of League of Legends and letting it decay to the point where people are starting to give up and just move on? Twisted Treeline, Dominion, the Lore. All three sub-communities feels abandoned by Riot Games and a lot of them are just losing hope and moving on. People are only willing to wait so long before going "it's no longer worth the stress of waiting. Let's just move on to something we know Riot gives attention to, Summoner's Rift Ranked."

I've always believed that time in the technological world moves ten times faster than time in the real world. If Microsoft came up with something incredibly innovated, then they can gain a lot from it. If Apples came up with something incredibly innovated, then they can gain a lot from it. If Google came up with something incredibly innovated, then they can gain a lot from it. If any of these three giants decided to work on something for over a year without really cluing their audience about it or plan something where they know they will get clued in, they're gonna jump ships.

Anyways, I apologize for the negative attitude I am displaying. I just wanted to display some of my frustration. I apologize I was not able to completely keep a level head but I do care a lot about all aspects of League of Legends. I want all three things to be completely revived and be something anyone who plays League of Legends to be proud of. Every time I hear "lore's dead, Twisted Treeline is an imbalanced mess, Dominion's a failure," it hurts me.

Anyways2, I know that you probably won't respond to this wall of text. But thank you for at least reading it and trying to understand my frustration. I know Rioters do, and I've been here long enough to know that you do care what we think. So, thank you.


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Cerubois

Senior Member

02-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotRunaan View Post
Hey guys, thanks for the feedback.

While I do agree that the writing on page four could have possibly been handled in a more subtle manner that matched the methodology of the rest of the piece, I'll defend my position to include the context of her brother's death. You're right, something like this could have simply been included in her text bio (and it actually is), but one of the goals for Quinn's journal was to convey as much about her character as possible to players, and that includes players who may never read a text bio at all. In addition, the piece already has several subtleties to the main plot, as mentioned before. Honestly, during the writing process, I was a bit concerned that readers might have a hard time following it in a few places (this has actually proven somewhat true). I deliberately chose to be heavy-handed with some detail to avoid too much of that problem.

Could I have done it the other way around? Heavy-handed with plot details, light touch on deeper character motivation? Probably. Should I have omitted the information about Caleb's death and its impact on Quinn? Personally, I don't believe so. Heavy-handed as I might have been with it, I'm glad that players are very clearly aware of what Quinn's brother meant to her. Hopefully, the majority can see how it informs the rest of her character overall.

Again, thanks for the feedback. I'll keep all of this in mind for the next piece I tackle.
Thank you, Runaan. It takes a lot of guts to come in and explain your writing, and I'm sure everyone here is glad for it in some way. You guys should do this more often. A lot of complaints could be settled quite easily, I think, with some proper Riot input.


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RiotRunaan

Associate Creative Designer

02-10-2013
2 of 6 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex3omg View Post
I agree that the brother thing was kind of off.

It could have been conveyed differently, like maybe an image of his simple grave, maybe with her crying near it, although then we wouldn't be sure who he was it adds some depth to her story and mystery. Who was this 'caleb' and why does she care that he died? Well maybe he was her bf or friend or whatever, that part isn't as important- she lost someone, that's the point. As for her commoner background you could have had a letter from garen or jarvan saying something like, "you're pretty good for a peasant" (though perhaps phrased in a more tactfully condescending way)
Like I said, it was a conscious choice to be more deliberate and obvious about a lot of this. The goal wasn't to lay out a bunch of inconclusive and mysterious threads for the character (both Ironstylus and I felt like this would be confusing and frustrating to a lot of players who are really just looking for a character preview, not a puzzle), it was to present as much information as possible about her in a compelling way. I'd hoped people would be on roughly the same page about her at the end of the journal and come out of it with more forward-looking questions rather than trying to discern the secrets of her backstory. I wanted people to know who Caleb was--there was already the running mystery of who "Val" was, after all, so I chose not to confuse the plot further.

Again, though, some of these are really cool ideas--a letter from Garen or Jarvan might've been an interesting addition to the piece as well. Hm! :)

Also, for the record, I'm perfectly willing to partake in a constructive conversation here provided it remains constructive.


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