AA damage: IE > Penetration

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steelfirez

Senior Member

02-07-2013

I have a lot of doubt in these figures. You claim that ie is more efficient at every armor level?
Even if I haven't done the figures, that's pretty obviously wrong.
The pretty much optimal late game build just for aa's is IE, BT, LW, PD, +boots.


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xEmptiness

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Senior Member

02-07-2013

At 20 ArP from runes 10% crit dmg from mastery, ignoring all the other negligible values, with your build Draven deals (on 250 armour targets):
-759 DPS with perma spinning axes and blood rush
-572 DPS with just blood rush

If I remove 1 IE and add LW:
-926 DPS with Q+W perm
-681 DPS with W perm


On 100 armour (pretty common) targets:
Your build:
-1392 DPS Q+W perm
-1049 DPS W perm
IE for LW:
-1521 DPS Q+W perm
-1118 DPS W perm


Zero armour:
Your build
-2505 DPS
-1889 DPS
IE for LW
-2128
-1564


So as you can see, LW is definitely better than a second IE at even lvl 18 base armour values. Plus it's cheaper.


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Olek Skilgannon

Senior Member

02-07-2013

WAIT

You didn't know this?

The only possible argument you could have is whether to go BT or IE first.
And the answer for ADCs that DO NOT have much in terms of damage scaling abilities is IE. Meaning BT is the better buy most of the time.

As a first buy IE will give you 7 more DPS without the lifesteal. BT gives you less DPS but because of your damage scaling abilities you will deal more damage.
Carries that like BT first over IE, will like LW as a second buy, over IE.

Basically if you're Caitlyn/Tristana/Ashe you need the multiplicative scaling of AS/Crit, so you build IE PD/SS. Everyone else should be taking BT/LW as their first buys.


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Kyryck

Senior Member

02-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schtauffenz View Post
I've made and been messing with an excel sheet. Using Draven stats at level 18 with 17/13/0 masteries and pen marks and quints. From my numbers, talking pure aa damage (my model isn't intricate enough for abilities yet), Adding IE (or a second IE even) always does more damage than adding LW or BC.

I'm taking care to watch for uniqueness of the critical damage modifier and everything... Yet it seems no matter what that if you can afford IE you should always purchase it over penetration.(until you hit 100 critical chance)

So for top damage of aa I've got:

Berserk boots, bt, pd, ie, ie, pd (2nd pd turns out to be marginally more dps than a 3rd ie)

Technically ie should be before everything, but I like bt and pd first. I've gotten the same results from 40 Armor up to 250.

Thoughts?
Your setup is massively incorrect. I can think of no less than three pros I have watched stream that have actually shown the math they're using and demonstrate just how ridiculous buying another IE would be.

If you want people to believe what you're saying, go ahead and post your math. Of course, better put your ego in your back pocket when you do, because several people on this forum that are actually good at math will shred your calculations to show you just how wrong you are.


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Menea6587

Senior Member

02-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by steelfirez View Post
I have a lot of doubt in these figures. You claim that ie is more efficient at every armor level?
Even if I haven't done the figures, that's pretty obviously wrong.
The pretty much optimal late game build just for aa's is IE, BT, LW, PD, +boots.
Most basic attack dps?

Assuming zerkers is a must, it's:
IE PD LW PD BT30 for above 100ish armor

IE PD BT30 PD BT30 for everything else (basically nothing since almost everyone will have 100 armor at 18)

Assuming this isn't paper and it's real life, you drop the second PD for a defensive item.


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Olek Skilgannon

Senior Member

02-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by xEmptiness View Post
At 20 ArP from runes 10% crit dmg from mastery, ignoring all the other negligible values, with your build Draven deals (on 250 armour targets):
-759 DPS with perma spinning axes and blood rush
-572 DPS with just blood rush

If I remove 1 IE and add LW:
-926 DPS with Q+W perm
-681 DPS with W perm


On 100 armour (pretty common) targets:
Your build:
-1392 DPS Q+W perm
-1049 DPS W perm
IE for LW:
-1521 DPS Q+W perm
-1118 DPS W perm


Zero armour:
Your build
-2505 DPS
-1889 DPS
IE for LW
-2128
-1564


So as you can see, LW is definitely better than a second IE at even lvl 18 base armour values. Plus it's cheaper.
Almost anything is better than a second IE. And by almost, I mean not almost because everything is better.


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Olek Skilgannon

Senior Member

02-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Menea6587 View Post
Most basic attack dps?

Assuming zerkers is a must, it's:
IE PD LW PD BT30 for above 100ish armor

IE PD BT30 PD BT30 for everything else (basically nothing since almost everyone will have 100 armor at 18)

Assuming this isn't paper and it's real life, you drop the second PD for a defensive item.

Actually you would drop the second BT if you really wanted to stack items.

PD is more dps. A lot more.


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xEmptiness

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Senior Member

02-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olek Skilgannon View Post
Almost anything is better than a second IE. And by almost, I mean not almost because everything is better.
In terms of 4 item raw DPS on a zero armour target I have no doubt that IEPDPDBT is the best. A second IE is actually not the worst choice (or even close) as much as you would like to believe, LW is just better.


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Schtauffenz

Senior Member

02-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyryck View Post
Your setup is massively incorrect. I can think of no less than three pros I have watched stream that have actually shown the math they're using and demonstrate just how ridiculous buying another IE would be.

If you want people to believe what you're saying, go ahead and post your math. Of course, better put your ego in your back pocket when you do, because several people on this forum that are actually good at math will shred your calculations to show you just how wrong you are.
I'm not having an ego, I just found something that I found strange and posted it. The error very well could be in my calculations. Unfortunately my work computer does not have Internet so I'm stuck finding alternative means to getting it online. I may have to redo it once I get home and post it then. Hopefully I'll get the same results. If not I know i was in error :P


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Schtauffenz

Senior Member

02-07-2013

Can anyone confirm or deny a crit cap of 60 percent? Wiki still says 100...