@Morello Its been a year since you changed Warwick. Lets look at how they panned out

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Grockk

Senior Member

02-05-2013

EDIT 2/26/13

A simple set of changes to make WW viable:

Passive- boost numbers at least 20% (they were nerfed around 35%, 50% at low levels) to account for the 20% more expensive/less available attack speed in S3, and for his anemic healing after the nerf (see below). Let him stack on himself, not individual targets (so he doesn't lose his stacks if he changes targets).
Q- restore last level to 20%, leave the rest the same as now so his laning is unaffected. Add a small, short duration slow (i,e., 7% like gangplanks) to his Q.
W- removes attack speed debuffs for duration
E- bloodscent mark removed; pressing E causes WW to jump a short distance.


EDIT 2/20/13

In S3, attack speed items were nerfed. Recall in S2 it cost 1050 for 40% AS on a recurve bow. Now it costs 950 to get 30%. Thats a 20% price increase for the same amount of attack speed. And WW's passive only scales on attack speed. How hard is it to buff warwicks numbers on his passive by 20% during a hotfix?

EDIT 2/18/13

I think its telling that the best Warwick players listed in this thread:
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2115403

haven't actually played much of any Warwick this season. Guardsmanbob, famous for his Warwick, played 2 games with him and averaged 1.5 kills/5 deaths. Wickd hasn't played any games with Warwick this season. Darien played him 2 games and averaged 6.5 kills/8 deaths.

EDIT 2/13/13:

Morello acknowledges WW is weak:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I agree WW is weak. Want to fix.
EDIT: Found this Riot Griftrix post in another thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by FalconPawwwwnch View Post
No seriously, just compare the kits of an older champ with a newer champ, and you'll see how stupidly big the gap is. Just compare the likes of warwick to some of the more modern bruisers. His q takes more mana than his ult at higher ranks. His E is so useless (much rather have an actual gap closer/opener), his ult can be removed by Qss or if warwick gets Cc'd at all. Look at Vi's kit, 6 bonus ad ratios, a gap closer/opener, a hard unstoppable cc with a gap closer, %armor shread, %health damage AND an as steroid on one skill, and a shield that scales with her hp. Vi is not Op by any means at all, but do you see what the problem is here? Everytime a new champ comes out riot adds more and more things in their kit just to keep up with some of the newer champs, and then this snowballs to the future champs and so forth. It's insane. It's why people like gp, nasus, sion, warwick, and the like are completely noncompetitive right now. This powercreeping has completely shutdown some of the older champs to the point of near uselessness. Anyone else think so?

also, Once you guys started putting bonus ad ratios in on people, you put them in on EVERYBODY. None of the old champs bar a few exceptions have bonus ad ratios, unless they have been reworked since then.

Edit: If you wanna make another comparison, just look at Lee Sin's kit and compare it to warwick's, who originally was meant to be a melee bruiser/tank. Lee Sin has a total of 4.8 bonus ad ratios. He has 2 dashes, an execute, an aoe slow and AS slow, a hard knockback cc with a chance to knock up the entire enemy team, free lifesteal, free spellvamp, and (before) free armor...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Griftrix View Post
I don't think it's binary at all. If Warwick's ult had 5 second cooldown and did 4k damage per second, I think he would be OP. There is somewhere inbetween where a lack of utility and a strength in the few things a champion DOES to hits a nice balance point. Continually increasing his numbers will make him OP, but you can stop before that happens.
I agree that WW could be balanced by increasing his numbers. I like how simple he is; its just that for his extreme lack of utility compared to today's champs, what little he DOES do simply isn't strong enough to compensate. Restoring his passive back to what it used to be (6/12/18) would, for example, make him stronger without adding any complexity to him. Another example idea is giving him the same base move speed as Yi and Pantheon, which is 10 higher than his-- again, a simple numerical change that would make him more viable

Riot can argue that the world will end if they increase his numbers too much, but I disagree-- Riot had no problem nerfing Warwick twice in a row last year, so if you overdo it, just nerf him a little. Please spend 5-10 minutes, buff his numbers a little, and release it in the next patch. Save the redesign for later, but give us something NOW so that Warwick is VIABLE and USEFUL to the team THIS SEASON. Its not his simplicity that is holding him back-- remember, this is a champ that USED to be played by Saintvicious and Guardsman Bob-- its his numbers. Fix now.

END OF EDIT

In February of 2012:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
We're actually doing some tweaks to give him a bit more damage and a little less sustain. This will increase his threat and jungle clear times, but make him a bit less of a meatbag early game.
In terms of his threat level now, Warwick is Tier 4 in Elementz's opinion, and many agree with him (at least on WW):

http://www.reignofgaming.net/tier-li...tive-tier-list

Nowadays, just about every ability of Warwick's is very easy to counter:

Passive and Q: countered by ignite and executioner's calling. Typical teams carry 3-4 ignites and Warwick is constantly ignited in teamfights.

W: passively countered at all times by Frozen Heart and whenever he attacks someone wearing Randuin's Omen or Warden's Mail. How common are these items on the average team? And Randuin's/Warden's attack speed debuff stacks with Frozen Heart's debuff!

E: countered by exhaust, frozen mallet, trinity force, Randuin's Omen, and more than 10 other items, and over 100 champion abilities. Or simply get your health above 50% and he doesn't even have the ability.

R: just about any stun/knockup/kick/punch ability, not to mention 2 items (quicksilver sash and mercurial scimitar).

Quote:
Originally Posted by SRPigeon View Post
But wouldn't you say his sustain is what defines his character?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Lower it, not gut it Don't worry, it's not going away.
"gut" vs. "balance" depends on your perspective. To address the rampant use of Warmogs in tournaments as well as the constant complaints about this item, its price was increased from 2650 to 2830. This represents a 6.8% increase in its price. A lot of changes to the game are on this scale. Now take a look at what was done to Warwick's sustain:

Change in WW's passive healing by level

Level Original New Change
1 6 3 -50%
2 6 3.5 -42%
3 6 4 -33%
4 6 4.5 -25%
5 6 5 -17%
6 6 5.5 -8%
7 12 6 -50%
8 12 6.5 -46%
9 12 7 -42%
10 12 8 -33%
11 12 9 -25%
12 12 10 -17%
13 18 11 -39%
14 18 12 -33%
15 18 13 -28%
16 18 14 -22%
17 18 15 -17%
18 18 16 -11%

WW's suffered an average loss to his passive healing of:

early game: -29%
mid game: -35%
late game: -25%

Change: Damage of Hungering Strike (Warwick's Q) reduced to 8/10/12/14/16% from 8/11/14/17/20%

Original New Change
8 8 0%
11 10 -9%
14 12 -14%
17 14 -18%
20 16 -20%

Note that the -20% applies to both to his damage and healing, since his healing is based on the damage dealt.

In my opinion, from both playing Warwick before and after the change and from examining the above numbers, Warwick's sustain was gutted; thats why his popularity plummeted and he is no longer seen by pro players as being viable. When was the last time you saw him played competitively in a tournament?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taenshi View Post
Can you give him a bit more base mana? Rather absurd how quickly he ooms without blue
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
I'll ask about this - I'm not feeling it myself as a WW player, but I can get some analysis done on this.
Of the 100 mana-using champions in LOL, Warwick's initial mana pool ranks #95, and his rate of mana gain per level ranks #99 (only Vayne is worse). You can verify this here:

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wik...ion_statistics

Warwick's level 2 mana is 220. Warwick's level 2 Q requires 80 mana; after two uses he is nearly out of mana.

With regard to the statement that you are a WW player, are you still a WW player, or have you abandoned him like most players? I checked here:

http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/241271#history

You do jungle a lot, but you've been playing Amumu, Vi, and Rammus in the jungle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tesla21 View Post
"we are buffing jungle camps back up [in season 3] to actually be more threatening"
warwick cries tears of joy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
WW and Fiddles are really happy, just tested both this week
A lot of people, particularly in high ELO, don't regard Warwick as a viable jungler in Season 3, just as he wasn't viable in Season 2. Stonewall currently has him in Tier 4.

http://www.reignofgaming.net/tier-li...ist-thresh-era

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyuPhalian View Post
So out of curriosity, how are you increasing his jungle speed?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Mostly in his early damage, so while still a slower-than-AOE jungler, not criminally slow like now (kill creeps faster via damage).

We're not doing massive overhauls or reworks here, just balance updates with this goal in mind.
The changes were major; Warwick lost an average of 27% of his sustain from his passive, 20% off his Q's damage, and 20% off his Q's healing.

In terms of his jungling speed, it wasn't improved much. Consider the 3 small wraiths. They require 150 HP to kill. Warwick's base damage is 60. Before you added the magic damage to his passive, therefore, he required 3 hits to kill each small wraith. After you added the magic damage, he STILL required 3 hits to kill each small wraith (63 + 66 = 129). Maybe the 3rd hit now needs to do less damage, but what difference does it make? He still requires 3 hits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vishibus View Post
Will these changes hurt Lanewick?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Very little to not at all.
lolcounter.com lists the following as counters to Warwick: Olaf, Teemo, Jax, Gangplank, Xin Zhao, Yorick, Pantheon, Garen, Jayce

These are common top picks. The fact is that his sustain is so anemic right now means that it doesn't take much to win top lane against him.

http://lolcounter.com/search.php?search=warwick

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xanthalis View Post
I'm not sure how I feel about his sustain being tampered with. It's what made me want to learn to play him. Plus the trade off of sustain for damage isn't appealing, like many others more damage on WW isn't a huge incentive.

Also, he doesn't have to be a jungler, and without AoE may still be subpar.

Plus where does the damage come from?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Probably W or passive. These aren't major changes, just tweaks that generally speed up his jungle times and make him slightly more threatening.
I would argue that neither of these goals were met. Warwick didn't get significantly faster in the jungle, but he did become a lot less threatening.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
It's a tricky topic, because our job is to make decisions based on what players not only want, but need. Let me explain that a bit.

Determining what players want is actually pretty simple - your most invested users tend to be very vocal and will put effort into making sure they're heard (ie; most forumers!) This is a good metric of understanding what players want, at least for high-engagement folks.

What players need is where players don't proclaim a desire for something, but it helps provide something they say they want. Many times, this is more than a single solution - it requires several steps of implementation to reach a result, or takes time to bake in many cases. Let me provide two example of want vs need, and why want cannot be the only driver for developers;

At Riot, we nerf champions. Nerfs are rarely wanted (and many times, unwanted). But, players want to have a fair experience with a variety of options. Additionally, a game without power caps and heavy power creep (something still happening faster than I'd like...) can disrupt the core game design focused around choices, decision-making, and strategy. To accomplish this, we need to nerf champions, even if players don't explicitly want us to.
I would argue that there is a need in LOL for champion that is both simple to play and viable, like what Warwick used to be. I got started playing Warwick because I wanted to play with 4 very experienced friends who all had 100's of games behind them. They didn't want a newbie screwing up their games, so they told me to play warwick in the jungle. It worked out; Warwick is extremely simple to play and back then Warwick was a viable champ that had something to contribute to the team. There is a need for a champion like this, devoid of all the complexities of the newer champions. Please restore Warwick to being a viable pick. My suggestions are:

1) restore his passive to 6/12/18 healing. He was a meatbag, as you say, but it was by design- that was his champion concept. It worked and it was simple. Now his passive feels anemic, particularly with the reductions to attack speed in Season 3 (Warwick's passive scales ONLY on attack speed). A champion with a Doran's Blade restores more health per hit (5 healed per hit) than Warwick when last hitting until he reaches level 5 (below level 5, he heals 3-4.5 per hit, it takes him until level 5 to match the passive on ONE Doran's Blade if he is last hitting and can't build stacks).

2) let him stack his passive while changing targets. Players inevitably retreat when you start attacking them with Warwick and you are forced to change targets and lose all your stacks.

3) let his W remove attack speed debuffs when activated, its kind of silly to have a common item like Frozen Heart passively eliminate one of your abilities. This would be analogous to how Garen removes movement speed debuffs with Decisive Strike. It would allow some counterplay with regard to when Warwick chooses to W.

4) increase either his base mana pool or regen rate. If his base regen rate was increased by 2-3 it would help a lot.

Some others have suggested giving him some mild CC on his Q such as gangplank's passive (-7% movement speed) to make his early ganks more effective.

EDIT: others have also suggested that his bloodscent mark on the target be removed, since its a dead giveaway thats he's coming after you. Maybe leave just the howl and let the target figure out whether he should run or not. Others have also suggested that bloodscent should reveal invisible targets under 50% health.

EDIT: others have suggested that his ult could reset on a kill like Darius.

EDIT: his E could have its bloodscent mark removed and the current ability become and E passive. Then, for the active, WW could have either a 3 second speed boost (like Shurelya's Reverie) that would make his early ganking for fruitful, or a leap gap-closer that lets him go through walls when chasing the likes of Jarvan or any other of the many champs that go through walls.

EDIT: here's a quote from GamersLegends, a high ELO Warwick player. I totally agree with him that nerfing WW's Q early game and preserving the rest of him would have been a much better approach to reducing WW's early sustain in lane.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GamersLegends View Post
My idea was: Nerf his percentage on Hungering strike hard at early levels and have it scale up to 20% at level 5. Problem solved.

For example:
5% - 9% - 12% - 16% - 20%

See, not that hard.. nerf early percentage scaling and keep it the same at highest level.. Just as you did to vladimir
Thanks for listening.


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Grockk

Senior Member

02-05-2013

bump


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Snakerot

Senior Member

02-05-2013

Very well put together post. +1'ed


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IS1420747fbfb7e639f9e80

Senior Member

02-05-2013

It is a year since they changed warwick itself.
that doesnt mean that he hasn't changed since. Changing other things also affects ww relative to them 2.


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Sikkes

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Senior Member

02-05-2013

Giving him his original healing on top of his magic on hit damage makes him OP. Neither lanewick or junglewick need this.


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Isral

Senior Member

02-05-2013

riot wont do this cause it would make sence, ww was a beast for season 1 and the fear of the league for jungling. now hes meh. kinda sucks cause he was my first jungler and was what got me into this game


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TittySprinklesJr

Senior Member

02-05-2013

Don't let this thread die.


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Grockk

Senior Member

02-05-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pentaquarkx View Post
It is a year since they changed warwick itself.
that doesnt mean that he hasn't changed since. Changing other things also affects ww relative to them 2.
I would argue that the S3 changes have made him worse. The reductions in attack speed (his passive scales only on attack speed) combined with the reduced cost of extra health (which, effectively, is all Warwick's Q and passive generate for him) hurt him relative to other champs.


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IS11d6327cb35cafc124891

Senior Member

02-05-2013

Ya i agree the manacost is completly moronic.


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Schtauffenz

Senior Member

02-05-2013

WW is a funny character to me, because as a starting player he was THE jungling character. The one everyone should start with, etc. Every time I see a WW jungle I cringe because the character is just lacking... he really needs some adjusting.


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