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[Game][feedback] CDR nerfs make itemization feel forced.

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Captain Halc

Senior Member

02-05-2013

This is a tad hard to explain, but since dfg and athene's(especially) have had their cdr reduced, purchasing cdr feels like i'm being forced into certain builds. Now if I need/want 15% cdr I need to purchase an item leaning more tword supports, which in turn greatly hurts certain ap carries (eg. Lux). So to remain on a more ap carry path I need to choose between 10% items or morello's 20% cdr, I feel like the choices are too slim for such a big % cdr gap between items. If a player doest want morellos they now have to purchase x2 10% items, athene's is fine but going beyond that you hit situational items and items that dont function well with certain champs (eg. Dfg) causing the feeling of buying cdr to now feel like a forced decision where a player must decide between building what they consider fun, but gimping their play, or bulding strictly tword the general idea of an ap carry. I didn't mention boot of lucidity be because of current state of s3 sorcs is pretty much a must buy for mids. Either a new cdr item need to be introduced to fill the cdr gap for ap mids, or the changes should be re-thought. These are my opinions, Im an avid Lux player,l with over 1k games played with her, I rune cdr blues and quints (this isnt me bragging or anything, just trying to show some expirience when it comes to using cdr effictivly)


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HuronTempest

Junior Member

02-05-2013

I've got to say I agree. I believe the changes are geared toward reducing the complexity of itemization by isolating stats to particular items. One example of this would be the changes to Archangels staff from season 2 to season 3 (reduction of mana regen from 25/5 to 10/5). I think this is part of Xypherous' attempt to streamline itemization.

That said, I'm not convinced I'm a fan. While I think I understand some of the reasoning behind it, I don't like 2 things about the new system (they're related)

1. It feels like if you need a stat, there is only 1 item you can buy to itemize toward that stat, and it may have a leaning that isn't optimal for your particular taste (e.g. the defensive nature of Athene's as it's been shifted away from an offensive item). What if I want offensive mana regen/sustain?

2. There doesn't seem to be as much "fine tuning" of stats across items. That is, it feels like if you need a stat, there is only really one place to get it, and it may be either too much or too little for your precise needs. It feels more difficult to hit a "sweet spot" for stats, because there is limited itemization.

What do you guys think? Thoughts on itemization changes?


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Tilare

Senior Member

02-05-2013

In all honesty, there should be multiple different ways to build the same stat. Making it so there is a single item that gives it to you, or just a handful, limits builds so heavily. Having a diverse build range means that someone can still build for their role, but change a few items in order to offset the strengths of the enemy team - Even though it isn't wholly optimal, it can still be the best build choice for the game.

I dislike having itemization changes aimed at simplification. Build possibilities need to be diverse in order for emergent gameplay to have a great impact on the game itself - Something as simple as an item choice can have a great impact on the game, whereas, with little choice, there is then little impact. Constraining possibilities stagnates the game, making certain champions more viable than others simply because they use the limited item possibilities as optimal as possible, and more than others.

Just my reply to the two of you.


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Captain Halc

Senior Member

02-05-2013

Quote:
Tilare:
In all honesty, there should be multiple different ways to build the same stat. Making it so there is a single item that gives it to you, or just a handful, limits builds so heavily. Having a diverse build range means that someone can still build for their role, but change a few items in order to offset the strengths of the enemy team - Even though it isn't wholly optimal, it can still be the best build choice for the game.

I dislike having itemization changes aimed at simplification. Build possibilities need to be diverse in order for emergent gameplay to have a great impact on the game itself - Something as simple as an item choice can have a great impact on the game, whereas, with little choice, there is then little impact. Constraining possibilities stagnates the game, making certain champions more viable than others simply because they use the limited item possibilities as optimal as possible, and more than others.

Just my reply to the two of you.


I agree with you, there should be a wide variety of choices when building, but you seem to have missed the problem I was adressing. With the change they just made they limited the player to choosing between support items for cdr and gimping on dmg, or purchasing items that dont function with their playstyle, champion abilities, ect. There is pretty much only 2 build paths now that both have negative impacts on the player.

I do agree with you though about having multiple build options, However you're argument when saying there shouldnt be an item that gives you everything you need is also valid, but you still need items to fit what you need on your champion piece by piece, and one of thise pieces on a lot of players is cdr, and with the recent nerf it really complicates the overall picture forceing players to move into other buikd paths, and thats wrong. You should never be forced into a certain build, there shoud be good builds, better builds, builds you enjoy, builds you personally do well with, but NEVER builds you are forced to build to get youre desired out come, there should alwasy be choices, and my argument here is now weir left with two really bad choices.


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Terrornaut

Senior Member

02-05-2013

With killing mana regen, its really messed with my AP game and probably changes the way I'll have to build half of my ap champs. Maybe I was one of few people to consistently build F Codexes into an evil tome because it was a good early game boost, but the change really kills it for me, forcing me to build a chalice. Never really needed to on most of my champs, maybe Ziggs, but not Cass/Elise/Eve/Zyra among others. I always aimed for major CDR in my builds, but now...its just kind of taken some of the options and fun out of what I can do.


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Captain Halc

Senior Member

02-05-2013

Quote:
Terrornaut:
With killing mana regen, its really messed with my AP game and probably changes the way I'll have to build half of my ap champs. Maybe I was one of few people to consistently build F Codexes into an evil tome because it was a good early game boost, but the change really kills it for me, forcing me to build a chalice. Never really needed to on most of my champs, maybe Ziggs, but not Cass/Elise/Eve/Zyra among others. I always aimed for major CDR in my builds, but now...its just kind of taken some of the options and fun out of what I can do.


I had the same thoughts as you when the mana regen was removed from codex, it delt a big blow to my playstyle. It really killed that item imo


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Drodeka

Member

02-06-2013

I think Spell Vamp and Attack Speed have been given the cold shoulder.
There is only one fully offensive Spell Vamp item.


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Millouis

Senior Member

02-06-2013

Attack speed is fine where it is. And there are 3 spell vamp items. Gunblade is offensive, wota is offensive and the spirit of the spectral wraith gives ap + spellvamp + cdr. What's not offensive about this?


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Badruk

Senior Member

02-06-2013

Quote:
Millouis:
Attack speed is fine where it is. And there are 3 spell vamp items. Gunblade is offensive, wota is offensive and the spirit of the spectral wraith gives ap + spellvamp + cdr. What's not offensive about this?


Gunblade gives AD, which mages don't want, and Spectral Wraith is a jungle item, so basically if you want spell vamp, your laning, and your not Jax or Akali you need to get WoTA, so I'm pretty sure what he meant was he wanted another spell vamp item for laning, IMO they need to make an item that gives spell vamp and CDR(or some other stat) so that AD casters can build it and APs arent forced to get WoTA


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Dillybear

Senior Member

02-06-2013

i think the real problem is that a lot of non mana using mages(and there are quite a few of them) didnt like wasting stats on mana regen, but they always had options, it was just the the items that had mp5 were also really good at other things too (ie. old dfg, chalice for mr, nashors tooth for as/ap) mana regen and cdr used to be almost 2 stats that were always on the same item. so if a manaless mage wanted cdr they were forced into mana regen as well. I think now though. we're on the opposite end, now if oyu want regen you are forced to get too much of it with chalice or tear when really thats more than most champs need mid/late game. i think there needs to be a good mage damage item with mana regen.


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