Reduce Crystaline Flask to 325 gold?

Yes 86 83.50%
No 17 16.50%
Voters: 103. You may not vote on this poll

Still looking at flask

123
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Kholdstare13

Senior Member

02-06-2013

Can I get some posts by the "no" voters to hear their logic?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Jeanschyso

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

02-06-2013

Taking flask first is obviously a risky attempt at very early aggression. It's a way to say "I do enough damage the way I am, I just need to get to lvl3 to kill you and snowball"

Dangerous, because if you fail, you're faaaaarr behind.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

BroKenTerRa

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Junior Member

02-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kholdstare13 View Post
Could we PLEASE make this 20g cheaper? It doesn't fit into any starting build. Summoner's Rift players will argue that they want flask + 2 wards as a start. Dominion players want boots + 700g + flask, whether that 700 is a tear or a cloth + a 400g item, it just FITS at 325. Flask is the kind of item you WANT to start with, rather than pick up your first time back. Please adjust the cost so we can start with the item. Nerf the healing by 1 second if you must, I just want to be able to afford it while keeping 21 points in offense or defense.
So you want a Flask buff, so you start with more broken opening items without sacrificing something... Like instead of skipping the early ward for more pots, or skipping early pots for the ward... Instead of actual thought being put into the opener, you want a generic, good in all situations opener? Boots got nerfed because everyone bought them all the time. Flask got nerfed because it essentially became the same as boots, only more broken.

There are 2 scenarios (IF you want Flask to be balanced, that is):
1) Flask is cheap, but will take so long to recover the cost it essentially functions like a GP10.
2) The cost is high, but reasonable, allowing returns to be larger without the item being broken.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The PKK Revenge View Post
But there's the problem really. Flask wasn't the cause of there being too much sustain, it was the fact that almost no one starts boots any more. I mean look at what players are doing sense the cost increase of flask, now they just start with a few wards and a ton of health pots. While I'm not totally against the cost increase of flask, it didn't really solve the problem that it was suppose to. It might have decreased sustain after the first back, but before the first back there is still a lot of sustain from pots.
People were spamming pots before the Flask nerf. Even just buffing boots back to their original values wouldn't help because very few junglers (if any) can start boots+3 in the current jungle, so there's no real reason to start boots anyway unless both the jungle AND boots get changed.

And the problem wasn't so much heavy sustain, but the fact that Flask offered both heavy early sustain AND gold returns. If you dump gold into 9 or 11 pots, it's gold that never comes back to you. If you dump 225 gold into Flask, you never had to buy another potion unless you are in a trade heavy lane, and even if you did, you spent less money. If you buy 11 potions, that 1650 HP in sustain, but you have no items. If you buy 5 pot, Flask, Ward, you had 1050 HP in sustain, 180 mana, and a Flask, which is another 300 HP and 180 mana when you return to lane without buying anything. It contributed a LOT to your early game opener and STILL contributed something as the lane went on. Straight pots don't do that, you never got the 35 gold back in any way whereas Flask returned the money in terms of pots not bought.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Kholdstare13

Senior Member

02-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by BroKenTerRa View Post
So you want a Flask buff, so you start with more broken opening items without sacrificing something... Like instead of skipping the early ward for more pots, or skipping early pots for the ward... Instead of actual thought being put into the opener, you want a generic, good in all situations opener? Boots got nerfed because everyone bought them all the time. Flask got nerfed because it essentially became the same as boots, only more broken.

There are 2 scenarios (IF you want Flask to be balanced, that is):
1) Flask is cheap, but will take so long to recover the cost it essentially functions like a GP10.
2) The cost is high, but reasonable, allowing returns to be larger without the item being broken.



People were spamming pots before the Flask nerf. Even just buffing boots back to their original values wouldn't help because very few junglers (if any) can start boots+3 in the current jungle, so there's no real reason to start boots anyway unless both the jungle AND boots get changed.

And the problem wasn't so much heavy sustain, but the fact that Flask offered both heavy early sustain AND gold returns. If you dump gold into 9 or 11 pots, it's gold that never comes back to you. If you dump 225 gold into Flask, you never had to buy another potion unless you are in a trade heavy lane, and even if you did, you spent less money. If you buy 11 potions, that 1650 HP in sustain, but you have no items. If you buy 5 pot, Flask, Ward, you had 1050 HP in sustain, 180 mana, and a Flask, which is another 300 HP and 180 mana when you return to lane without buying anything. It contributed a LOT to your early game opener and STILL contributed something as the lane went on. Straight pots don't do that, you never got the 35 gold back in any way whereas Flask returned the money in terms of pots not bought.

I want it 20g cheaper. I want it balanced AROUND that cost, if they need to nerf the healing a bit, then fine. The problem is the unusual starting cost. 345 makes no sense. You're saying having a sustain for my inevitable early-game mana drain needs to come at the sacrifice of something else? WHAT do you want me to give up? my TEAR? I need those stacks in base if I ever want it to evolve. my BOOTS? That's one way to waste your revive off the bat. The flask itself? That's a huge waste of gold so early. Pots/recovery are meant to be starting items, to delay first B. The wonder of flask is that you continue to gain that recovery as the game goes on until you need the slot back. It is ABSOLUTELY made to be a starting item, the price is just wrong right now. You can't even u-turn for it if you are going top, you need to pull an immediate B after the teamfight no matter what the result instead, and that extra recovery could have cost your team the win.

Again, I don't care if they need to tweak the stats on it to compensate, but the item needs a gold reduction. There is no good way to use your gold if this item is in your starting build as it is now.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Pyr0n1c

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

02-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kholdstare13 View Post
Can I get some posts by the "no" voters to hear their logic?
I think it's pretty balanced at the moment, you see the evidence of why i got upped in price on the first page. I don't use it because i don't like it. Before it got upped i had some serious lane trouble from

Quote:
Originally Posted by HereticSage View Post
top laners were going flask + 13 pots.
that might not be the correct value but thats not the point. I'm not hear to argue, i was just answering this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kholdstare13 View Post
Can I get some posts by the "no" voters to hear their logic?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Kholdstare13

Senior Member

02-13-2013

If we can fill the poll a bit more, we might get someone @Riot to look into reworking this item for starting builds.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Keitterman

Senior Member

02-13-2013

I dunno, i think the price may be ok if they increased the charges to say, five, and got rid of helth/mana pots all together.

If the reason they increased this item is because it gave too much sustain at 225g, that's equivelent to six health pots. that's a lot of sustain, and considering it only had three cahrges before you had to go back anyway, I just dont' think that the flask was the problem with the flask + 11 pots starting build. Really, i don't know why Riot did it, but when you think that someone could just as easily go 17 pots to start, I doubt this was the reason...


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Solemendal

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

02-22-2013

flask 3 pots = gg mid at least when im playing lol


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Kholdstare13

Senior Member

03-15-2013

I have gone so many games hitting B after capping bot to grab this MUCH needed sustain on malz. Either my opponent grabs some early farm in the lane, or runs past minions and tries to cap, usually about halfway before i knock them off. They generally get a free poke at me, and can take the mid healthpack to recover from whatever I dish in the trade. Now I'm already down a charge of my new flask, and the healthpack is gone. Can't we knock 20 gold off so it's a nice even multiple of 25, and fits in with other items to make a starting build?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Kholdstare13

Senior Member

04-14-2013

People seem to be answering the poll but not posting. Please leave your thoughts to keep this thread visible.


123