Do you think Ashe should be give a (small) rework?

No. Absolutely not. She's the Marry Poppins of LoL: Practically perfect in every way. 41 12.58%
I'm on the fence: Ashe is the most awesome but I canít help thinking she could be better... 40 12.27%
Yes. But so small a change that most people wont even notice unless you mention it. 103 31.60%
To heck with SMALL! She's been so overlooked for so long it's like she's been FROZEN... in TIME! 142 43.56%
Voters: 326. You may not vote on this poll

Ashe really does need a (small) rework

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Oz SammyD X

Senior Member

02-14-2013

Yes that's why she still gets played in tournaments, your logic, she is fine the way she is, she is one of the most viable ADC for **** sake.


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ElDynamite

Senior Member

02-14-2013

The only thing she needs a rework for is her passive.
(And maybe some more damage per level)


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GlyphTsen

Senior Member

02-15-2013

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Originally Posted by Yhufir View Post
True. But that's even more inconsistent than Kog's passive. You can land a game changing arrow every game, to be sure. But assuming, as we must always do, that everything else is equal (i.e. People KNOW that they're playing against an Ashe and aren't ******* - they're playing perfectly), you're not going to land perfect ults every game and you're not going to win a teamfight just because you ulted.
I think it's never a good idea to assume perfect play. Even in Diamond league people will often make mistakes. Even if you do assume perfect play, you should assume that play on the part of Ashe and her team as well. That assumption would, actually, imply that you'll often get perfect or near-perfect Arrows, and/or at the very least, that the rest of your team would be able to exploit some of the strategies that enemies are forced to use to minimize her Ult's impact.

I think it's safe to agree to disagree on the reliability of Ashe's Ult (it's far more reliable than Kog's passive, in large part because Ashe controls when it's used in the first place), save perhaps for full-map shots. I also don't think it's a great idea to compare a passive and an Ult in the first place.


Regardless, Ashe's Ult is relatively unique among ADC's, as it can serve as an initiation move, or function towards a team disengage, things that ADC's normally don't provide. That "unicity" adds to her overall value.



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You hardly ever see her. Why? Simple: The risk is too high for the reward. She doesnt bring enough to a game, EARLY, to be viable as a top tier champ. In order to be truly viable you need to be well rounded, not just a FANTASTIC late game champ. You can argue with that by bring up a lot of different champs. But NONE of those examples, even among the ADCs, are as handicapped as Ashe is in early game. That's undisputable. She NEEDS something changed, in order to be viable. It's like that law of energy, nature abhors a vacuum. If there was a place for Ashe in the top ADCs, she would have filled it already.
I find it highly disputable, as if I were to bring up Poppy or Nasus as champions that are weaker early game. Heck, I'd argue that Karthus is weaker early game. But that's not important, I agree if we're going to do direct comparisons it should generally be with something that fulfills the same role and generally uses the same item-build.

As far as that goes, I actually think that Ashe has a better early game than Vayne, at the least. In terms of non-Ult mechanical capability, she is most similar to MF, Draven or Kogmaw. These champions don't have a dash or a blink ability like Ez, Corki, or Graves. They have AoE abilities that cause a slow, and they generally rely on abilities that improve their auto-attack damage for their primary harass/killing power. That said, all of those champions have higher damage capability than Ashe. It is worth noting that MF and Draven both also have an additional speed modifier as a boost for themselves.

So, the question is: is the lack of damage potential from Ashe worth the extra utility (and gold) that her kit brings in comparison to those other champions?

At present, I think the answer is "probably." I think that the shift away from her is caused by a few different factors, but none of them are that Ashe is "bad" or has "poor mechanics." I think it has more to do with popularity, shifting playstyles, and other meta-game-centric reasons.


That said, I could be wrong. It could be that the numbers are a little too low by comparison, requiring better numbers for Ashe or worse numbers for some of the other more popular carries like Draven (pending target balance within the overall game). I still see no good reason for her to get new mechanics though.


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Yhufir

Senior Member

02-20-2013

@SacredMesa: I thought I might as well look into your builds and statistics for Ashe to see if you're doing something that most others aren’t that might attribute to your unparalleled success with Ashe. Turns out, according to our friend lolking – which has definitely showed my own stats wrong so this isn’t definitive proof - you've played 1 ranked game with Ashe in all of Seasons 2 and 3 combined. So, yeah ... I'm done arguing semantics with you. You're not terrible at arguing but A) Your lack of experience (and faith) is disturbing; and B), as I've pointed out repeatedly.
If your opinion is that Ashe doesn't need any changes whatsoever, fine. I can accept that you disagree. The difference is you’re wrong (about they why part at least). You’re allowed to have your opinion about whether or not she does need some kind of change but not whether she statistically matches up to top tier ADCs. She doesn’t. At this point it doesn’t matter exactly how or why this came to be. What we’re discussing here is whether it’s desirable and feasible to change that without largely disrupting the current gameplay / status quo.
Anyways…

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Originally Posted by GlyphTsen View Post
I think it's never a good idea to assume perfect play.
I agree whole-heartedly. This was part of my frustration with this previous argument. Assuming we COULD play perfectly, we’d have to assume everyone else is doing the same in order to make a fair assessment of the situation. Instead let’s just look at the numbers (posted a few pages ago).
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I also don't think it's a great idea to compare a passive and an Ult in the first place.
This comparison is another grievance of mine. Compare Ashe’s passive with anyone else’s passive = Ashe loses.
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I agree if we're going to do direct comparisons it should generally be with something that fulfills the same role and generally uses the same item-build.
^ That. Hecarim, Renekton, etc … whoever else you want to bring into this discussion as an example of why Ashe is a great ADC because she’s just as strong/weak, relatively, as these guys are, relatively, in their domains is a non-issue. In the end this is a team game and these champs can’t be looked at with a microscope or a telescope. If you compare Ashe with other ADCs, she appears to be PLAYING at a much lower rate and FAILING at the same rate as those played much more. My experience tells me that if Ashe were played as much as most other ADCs she would show a higher loss rate. This is purely speculative on my part. But, again, from my experience, Ashe is picked for few reasons: 1) She’s typically the first ADC purchased (because she’s the cheapest) and so new people will tend to play her first / more often. 2) She’s great for certain comps / situations. She’s not ideal for all games (by any stretch of the imagination). Unlike other ADCs (such as Ezreal, Graves, Cait, Corki, Vayne, Varus, Draven, Tristana, Sivir, and MF - I don’t count Urgot, Twitch, or Teemo for various reasons I’m not going to go into here), Ashe is NOT versatile enough to be useful in all comps. To some greater or lesser degree, all those other champs really can be used almost interchangeably.

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So, the question is: is the lack of damage potential from Ashe worth the extra utility (and gold) that her kit brings in comparison to those other champions?
That might be one way to put it. I tend to think of it more like this: “Which ADC has the most useless ability” (again, not counting the 3 mentioned above – although you can include them in your own mental calculation if you want). The answer is fairly obvious; Ashe.
The follow-up questions, in order to qualify her for some kind of rework (in my mind at least) would have to be something like: “Is Ashe dominating the game, despite being handicapped by this useless ability?” If so, we need go no further. If Ashe was showing high pick and win rates, we would call this a wash and move on. However, if the answer is no, she isn’t being played at a high (or even normal) rate and definitely not winning at a high (and barely normal) rate, then obviously something is wrong.
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I still see no good reason for her to get new mechanics though.
Ya, no way. No one is asking for new mechanics. If you ask me, her mech is spot-on.



I guess I want to wrap up with this:
If you agree that Ashe’s abilities need to be examined for a slight alteration (most likely her passive), please speak up. I strongly believe that if enough of us voice our opinion on this Riot will listen.

If you don’t agree, fine. But before you write an epic novel on how shoehorns are like woodwinds, or a tree and a bolt of lightning are essentially the same things from 2 different points of view, please do some good research and bring some hard facts. I’m unimpressed with poor grammar, poor spelling, poor punctuation, poor cogency, incredible, and irrelevant diatribes.


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Martyrofsand

Senior Member

02-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yhufir View Post
@SacredMesa: I thought I might as well look into your builds and statistics for Ashe to see if you're doing something that most others arenít that might attribute to your unparalleled success with Ashe. Turns out, according to our friend lolking Ė which has definitely showed my own stats wrong so this isnít definitive proof - you've played 1 ranked game with Ashe in all of Seasons 2 and 3 combined. So, yeah ... I'm done arguing semantics with you.



Can't help but laugh at the silliness of this, however, since you want to be the one to play "look at my stats epeen game" let's do that...


Currently you have 139 wins in ranked putting you in Silver Division 5, you mainly play Cait, Ashe, and Sivir as your ADCs and of your match history with Ashe you tend to build garbage items like Statikk Shiv and Zephyr in addition to the basic PD/BT/IE while buying the Alarcrity boot enchant. You are not buying Last Whisper to get through armor, this would explain why you think she needs more damage, you are not buying a defensive item such as GA or Warmogs, which would explain your lack of ability to surive, and you are not enchanting your boots with Furor which would explain why you feel she has trouble kiting.

Looking at your record history your Ashe games in season 2 where not much better as you where sporting a comical 128 wins to 151 losses with her, an average creep score of 139.4, 5.5 kills, 4.9 deaths, and 8.6 assists.

It would be rather comical if it wasn't so sad.

If you want a comparison I'll go to my LoL replay and compare the stats from my last 10 Ashe games, and believe me I got more if you would like but this will gives us a decent start...


18/8/9, 376 CS
1/3/19, 300 CS
3/1/8, 139 CS
23/6/9, 278 CS
4/2/3, 131 CS
4/5/5, 185 CS
10/3/10, 290 CS
0/7/3, 208 CS
11/9/10, 298 CS
2/3/1, 153 CS(funny note I was 2v1 bot lane this game as my support DCed)

Average
7.6/4.7/7.7, 235.8 CS


Some how I'm not surprised that on average I have more kills, and more CS than you. You complain about Ashe being bad or needing to be changed, in reality you are bad and you simply need to get better. What's even funnier is you religiously play ranked while I have only played it when friends drug me into it or had me fill out a place of their 5s team, back in S2, which more than likely resulted in me play support, and yet even doing so I damn near made gold last season, ending around 1400, mean while you seem to be having trouble around the 1200s. If anyone here has no business talking about champs that deserve changes it's you.




Quote:
A) Your lack of experience (and faith) is disturbing; and B), as I've pointed out repeatedly. If your opinion is that Ashe doesn't need any changes whatsoever, fine. I can accept that you disagree. The difference is youíre wrong (about they why part at least). Youíre allowed to have your opinion about whether or not she does need some kind of change but not whether she statistically matches up to top tier ADCs. She doesnít. At this point it doesnít matter exactly how or why this came to be. What weíre discussing here is whether itís desirable and feasible to change that without largely disrupting the current gameplay / status quo.


Lack of experience you say...

Totally up your amount of games played I come to 1338 based on lolking. In game you show 6374 takedowns, 65476 minions and monsters killed, and 254 wins in normals, and your ranked states in S2 add up to 525 wins putting you at a total of 779 wins.

Meanwhile I show...

28481 takedowns, 261401 minions and monsters killed, and 1030 wins...

Again someone is lacking experience, and frankly a record, to back up their claims but it isn't me.



You want to claim I'm wrong, but so far the numbers you wanted to bring into this to try and disprove me and discredit me are doing one hell of a job making you look down right terrrible right now.



At this point I'm going to call you what you are, you are a kid who is bad, yet thinks he is good. You want to believe you know what you are talking about and have experience to back it up, simply put you don't. You are talking out of your backside, you cut up peoples arguements to try and make it look like you are addressing them when it reality you are just ducking anything that proves you wrong. You are the type of person I put on ignore in the middle of the game so I don't have to listen to you ***** about losing your lane while I am carring you to a win you don't deserve. That being the case I'm going to do the equivalent here, I'm done with you, keep spouting your ignorance I'm done trying to educate you.


Oh and one more thing...


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Iím unimpressed with poor grammar, poor spelling, poor punctuation, poor cogency, incredible, and irrelevant diatribes.

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The difference is youíre wrong (about they why part at least).

Irony.


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Yhufir

Senior Member

02-20-2013

According to LoLMatches.com, a sample of 15,300 games showed these stats. I added the coloration for above and below averages to make it easier to read.


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Yhufir

Senior Member

02-20-2013

I'm actually regretting getting into it without you, you're just so bad at this. But I couldnt resist:

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and of your match history with Ashe you tend to build garbage items
You mean all those ARAMs/ABAMs and unranked games I played where I used full crit damage runes to d!ck around? Rofl
The only Normal Draft game of Ashe I played in this month I went 18/3/2 with 303CS (happened to be last night). Which is the crux of my issue with you trying to act like Normals might be equivalent to Ranked. Normals are childs play bro. Mine’s bigger.
Play a couple hundred games as Ashe in ranked so we can all see your astounding prowess. If your scores look better than mine at 300 ranked games, I’ll concede.
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Meanwhile I show...
28481 takedowns, 261401 minions and monsters killed, and 1030 wins...
Just out of curiosity, since you didn’t offer the information, how many games total? 4000? 5000?

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Looking at your record history your Ashe games in season 2 where not much better as you where sporting a comical 128 wins to 151 losses with her, an average creep score of 139.4, 5.5 kills, 4.9 deaths, and 8.6 assists.
This would be embarrassing if I cared what my first 3 months of ranked LoL looked like anymore… I’ve mentioned a number of times in a number of threads; I refused to play anything BUT Ashe because I liked her so much. I dropped to around the 500s in Elo playing only Ashe during my first 3 months in LoL. Turns out no one plays her constantly in ranked and goes up in Elo.

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If you want a comparison I'll go to my LoL replay and compare the stats from my last 10 Ashe games … Somehow I'm not surprised that on average I have more kills, and more CS than you …
Again, you’re trying to compare my ranked play against your unranked play. Go ahead and do the math then come back when you can explain how that’s not equivalent.
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I have only played [ranked] when friends drug me into it or had me fill out a place of their 5s team, back in S2
Since when does playing Ranked 5s qualify you for commenting on solo Q?
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Again someone is lacking experience, and frankly a record, to back up their claims but it isn't me.
Says the guy with 1 game as Ashe in ranked for the last 2 seasons. (5s or solo)

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you cut up peoples arguements to try and make it look like you are addressing them when it reality you are just ducking anything that proves you wrong.
I never manipulated anything you, or anyone else, said. I used exact quotes only. And yeah, I sure as hell did cut them up into tiny pieces and sh!t on them. If anything you or anyone else said actually “proved” me wrong, I would have gotten off my pedestal a while ago.

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You want to claim I'm wrong, but so far the numbers you wanted to bring into this to try and disprove me and discredit me are doing one hell of a job making you look down right terrrible right now.
This is central, so I really want you to focus on this one: How have the numbers, that I brought into this, make me look bad? Honestly, give me the numbers I used and how they make ME look bad. I desperately need you to explain this to me like I’m actually as dumb as you think I am. Pretend I’m dumber than that and explain what the numbers (that I _ALONE_ brought up) mean, how they relate, and how they have had a negative impact on my argument.
THAT would be impressive.

So far the only thing resembling and argument has been: “No, Ashe is perfect. But her passive is weak.” And (your favorite): I believe Hecarim and Ashe are basically the same champion and I believe Hecarim to be unimpaired by, what I consider, a weak passive and therefore Ashe isn’t impaired either.
Seriously, if you can hack it in ranked, do us both a favor and “prove” me wrong.
I’ll understand if you never reply again. I’ve been tempted to ignore everything you say. I would have rather had you figure out why you’re wrong without me having to jam it down your throat. Making the connections yourself is always more enlightening than having someone draw a diagram for you. The way things are now, however, you’ll never have a leg to stand on without actually playing ranked. This whole conversation is about RANKED ASHE play. I don’t know how you missed that. Maybe I wasn’t clear enough.
Basically you’re telling me you’re WAAAY better than I am at the virtual poker you got on your iphone than I am at playing poker in a real casino.


(P.S. sure - pick the, like, 1 unintentional spelling error in my whole thread and get snarky)


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agbudar

Senior Member

02-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by GiottoXIII View Post
no man that passive of her currently rapes face... especially if ur smart about it early game... if ur talking about reworking hte passive then i'd rather just have it scale with level and be flat crit % but more than anythign she just needs an escape mechanic... otherwise she's golden ...
out of 1 hundred games only 1nce did i get first blood
to give you another example

out of 1 hundred plays with volibear i got FB about 15 times granted im not the best player but who does get FB every game?

that being said i feel as a carry ashe is too UP even if she is fed she can be easily dealt with


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Yhufir

Senior Member

02-20-2013

More of this, please.


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Deep Sea Dingo

Member

02-20-2013

Have you played Trinity force ashe?
Everytime i play TF ashe i get fed, and useually can carry the game. Volley is on a 4 second cd so trin proc as mucha s oyu want.
Id like to see ashe's volley be on a 3 second CD, i think her gold buff from hawk shot should be built into her passive gaining extra gold in a stacking affect kinda like Graves passive. have it at max stack giving max gold return, but is ruined if you miss a last hit. the only other thing i think ashe would need is an additional cc ability to make up for her lack of mobility. Make hawk shot travel half the distant with a quicker cd and give it a blinding cc effect. have it last like 1 sec at all lvls.