Do you think Ashe should be give a (small) rework?

No. Absolutely not. She's the Marry Poppins of LoL: Practically perfect in every way. 41 12.58%
I'm on the fence: Ashe is the most awesome but I canít help thinking she could be better... 40 12.27%
Yes. But so small a change that most people wont even notice unless you mention it. 103 31.60%
To heck with SMALL! She's been so overlooked for so long it's like she's been FROZEN... in TIME! 142 43.56%
Voters: 326. You may not vote on this poll

Ashe really does need a (small) rework

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Yhufir

Senior Member

02-11-2013

I tend to shy away from the idea of giving her an escape mech. Because she's so unique, I'd prefer to leave her mechanics alone. If we make her too much like other champs she just wont be Ashe. That's kinda like saying let's add a perma slow on-hit for Graves.


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footfoe

Senior Member

02-11-2013

more slow, higher move speed, better passive.


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KazaLyn Shao

Senior Member

02-11-2013

Ashe just isn't modern anymore. There are so many good ADCs with an escape mechanic or better passive that Ashe is just left in the dust. She has no attack steroid, so her harass is gimpy. She has no escape, so any good gank or a fight where she isn't in perfect positioning and you can kiss Ashe good bye. Her one and only good ability is her ultimate. Yes, hawk shot is nice, but given the amount of wards people throw on the map in good competitive play it's a little redundant. Her frost shot is lackluster too, given that any ADC with an escape will simply slip out of range and run off the slow. There's just nothing spectacular about Ashe. Just a big bag of mediocrity.


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Yhufir

Senior Member

02-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by KazaLyn Shao View Post
Ashe just isn't modern anymore. There are so many good ADCs with an escape mechanic or better passive that Ashe is just left in the dust. She has no attack steroid, so her harass is gimpy. She has no escape, so any good gank or a fight where she isn't in perfect positioning and you can kiss Ashe good bye. Her one and only good ability is her ultimate. Yes, hawk shot is nice, but given the amount of wards people throw on the map in good competitive play it's a little redundant. Her frost shot is lackluster too, given that any ADC with an escape will simply slip out of range and run off the slow. There's just nothing spectacular about Ashe. Just a big bag of mediocrity.
Ya, I agree completely. Ashe is in a position, in current meta at least, where she forgives NOTHING. If you dont position, kite, or build perfectly you really can kiss your Ashe goodbye.

This is what I've been saying for months; She's out of date. She's not completely outclassed yet but will be very soon. My hope would be that we actually do get a buff on her to the point where she's undeniably the best. It wouldnt take a whole lot. Then we could scale her back as needed for balance. But that's just a wish. In reality, it doesnt appear that we're going to see any change to Ashe in the foreseeable future. Which is sad considering how hard she's carried this game through the years.


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Martyrofsand

Senior Member

02-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yhufir View Post
Try sorting for NA plat players only. Then tell your team to focus the pony before the ADC.

You can't judge "perfect" Ashe play by arguing her win rate across all skill levels. The same way you cant judge Hec's kit against Ashe's kit because they are practically playing 2 different games.

And why doesnt Ashe deal amazing damage? She's an ADC. Her job is damage. Yes, there will always be ADCs who can out-scale her DPS. But the margin shouldnt be so noticable that we pick and win with an Ashe less than 1/5th the amount we win with other ADCs.

Hec is a terrible example anyways. His passive is that he ignores collision and gains AD based on AS. I would take that passive on Ashe _ANY_ day.

Edit: Try swapping those passives. Have Ashe take Hecarim's and Hec take Ashe's. Then come talk about Hecarim's passive being "lackluster"



If lolking had a filtering method to use I would of...strange you say you got numbers from there and yet you dont seem to know anything about what is actually available on the website.

Ashe is an adc and zyra and orianna are both apc and yet they dont come close to putting out the damage of cassiopeia, then again cassiopeia doesnt have their utility either. Ashe doesnt have the damage of other adcs but other adcs dont have her utility.

Btw hec passive gives hik ad based on his bonus move speed not his bonus atk speed.


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Yhufir

Senior Member

02-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by SacredMesa View Post
If lolking had a filtering method to use I would of...strange you say you got numbers from there and yet you dont seem to know anything about what is actually available on the website. .
http://www.lolking.net/champions/ashe#statistics
http://www.lolking.net/champions/ezreal#statistics
Look at the part that says "Chart Filters" (it's under the pretty pictures)

Please stop yourself before posting again. Despite making my arguments easy and making yourself look like an idiot, I'm bored of going back and forth with you just because you like being obstinate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SacredMesa View Post
Btw hec passive gives hik ad based on his bonus move speed not his bonus atk speed.
You're right I meant MS not AS - that was a typo. Get over it.


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Martyrofsand

Senior Member

02-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yhufir View Post
http://www.lolking.net/champions/ashe#statistics
http://www.lolking.net/champions/ezreal#statistics
Look at the part that says "Chart Filters" (it's under the pretty pictures)



Fair enough then, I never thought to click on the names from the screen I liked, I'll apologize for my earlier comments related to that.




Quote:
Please stop yourself before posting again. Despite making my arguments easy and making yourself look like an idiot, I'm bored of going back and forth with you just because you like being obstinate


There is nothing obstinate about it. In all of our discussion so far you have done nothing to actually refute what I have said, mean while let's look at your arguements...


1--Ashe has a worthless passive and it holds her back. I refuted this by pointed out a champion like Hecarum who also has a pretty damn worthless passive and is still one of the top tier champions at his role due to the utility he provides. Instead of actually discussing this point you decided to go with "hec isn't an ADC so invalid" arguement which really doesn't contribute anything to the discussion.

2--Ashe doesn't do enough damage. I pointed out that you can't bring both tons of utility while also doing high amounts of damage, I refered to a similiar situations with APCs in which I listed Orianna, Zyra and Cass pointing out that Cass does more damage than both of them but the other two have both been viable due to their utility. You never said anything to refute this instead just accused me of being obstinate.

So far those two things have never really been accurately discussed ot refuted by you, you mearly attempted to dismiss them about like you are trying to dismiss me. That's a pretty sad way of going about things when someone disagrees with you.


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Yhufir

Senior Member

02-12-2013

My argument has always been that Ashe's passive, compared to other ADCs, isn't consistent. So bringing up a non-ADC is an invalid argument. Moreover, Hecarim's passive ISNT worthless. Compared to other champs of similar type, it may be less desirable but, like I said, I would take Hecarim's passive on Ashe any day. I would actually go so far as to argue that Ashe's passive is the weakest in the game, regardless of role. Give her ANY of the other champs passives and she would be stronger.

Hecarim's role in the game is VERY different. Performing well with him does not require the amount of skill it takes to do well with Ashe. Very few champions require that much effort. I'm not bothering with your "Hec is in the same boat" argument because it's not true. This is easy to see, by simply taking an inventory of target priority, DPS, and CC: If Hec doesnt output a lot of DPS, it's not a problem because his CC helps his team do more damage. If Hec's CC doesn't do exactly what the team needs, Hecarim is FINE because no one in their right mind is going to attack/chase Hecarim before a champ like Ashe. Hec is tanky and fast, Ashe is squishy and slow, it's a no-brainer. On the other hand, if Ashe doesnt have enough DPS, her team will likely lose a lot of engages because they're getting out damaged. Her CC is great, I have no complaints on that subject, but it's not enough to keep her safe from a great number of gap closing champs - that's why she needs so much peel. She will get MELTED without proper positioning, kiting, and peel. Unlike Hecarim, if her CC (in this case her ult) doesnt do exactly what the team needs they either have to back off and try again next CD cycle or engage a much less desirable fight with even MORE attention to peel, since Ashe's main CC is blown and uneffective.

You didnt point out to me that you can't bring "tons of utility while also doing high amounts of damage." This is a fact of the game as it is now. And, frankly, using the APCs as an example is also somewhat questionable because the vast majority of them rely on burst damage. Blow all CDs and then stay out of harms way until they're back. Doing less burst damage but gaining the defensive abilities or CC is a trade-off but of course they're still viable when their main job is to burst down a single target then walk away. Even if they only did 50% of someone like Cass' damage, they're in and out and then they're effectively a support champ until their CDs are up. On the other hand having to maintain auto attack distance from high value targets, while not getting bursted or CC'd to death, means constant re-evaluation of positioning, target prioritization, and self defense.

So, in short, giving Ashe a passive that stops working after auto attack #1 means it is useless during every engage. Name another champ that gains 0 benefit from their passive and I'll gladly discuss that.

I'm being dismissive because, at least to me, these things are self-evident. I get that you have an opinion that differs from mine but that doesnt mean I have to respect your opinion. I'm under no obligation to "contribute" to a discussion that's more-or-less irrelevant.


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Martyrofsand

Senior Member

02-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yhufir View Post
My argument has always been that Ashe's passive, compared to other ADCs, isn't consistent. So bringing up a non-ADC is an invalid argument. Moreover, Hecarim's passive ISNT worthless. Compared to other champs of similar type, it may be less desirable but, like I said, I would take Hecarim's passive on Ashe any day. I would actually go so far as to argue that Ashe's passive is the weakest in the game, regardless of role. Give her ANY of the other champs passives and she would be stronger.



Actually the weakest passive in the game goes to Renekton, he doesn't actually have a passive he has an explaination of how his resource system works where his passive should be. It would be akin to Ahri having a passive saying "spell cost mana and if you don't have enough you can't cast them."

I never argued that Ashe's passive wasn't bleh, my point was simply having a weak passive doesn't hold a champion back and we have seen that numerious times actually between champs like Hecarum, Karthus and Kog'maw, one of which has a bleh passive and the other two require you to die to actually use it, and frankly if you want to die your playing the champ wrong. Hell I would actually argue that Kog'maw's passive is worse than Ashe's for that very reason, IE he has to DIE in order to actually have a passive and the ADC is the last person on your team you want dead.

Quote:
Hecarim's role in the game is VERY different. Performing well with him does not require the amount of skill it takes to do well with Ashe. Very few champions require that much effort. I'm not bothering with your "Hec is in the same boat" argument because it's not true. This is easy to see, by simply taking an inventory of target priority, DPS, and CC: If Hec doesnt output a lot of DPS, it's not a problem because his CC helps his team do more damage. If Hec's CC doesn't do exactly what the team needs, Hecarim is FINE because no one in their right mind is going to attack/chase Hecarim before a champ like Ashe. Hec is tanky and fast, Ashe is squishy and slow, it's a no-brainer. On the other hand, if Ashe doesnt have enough DPS, her team will likely lose a lot of engages because they're getting out damaged. Her CC is great, I have no complaints on that subject, but it's not enough to keep her safe from a great number of gap closing champs - that's why she needs so much peel. She will get MELTED without proper positioning, kiting, and peel. Unlike Hecarim, if her CC (in this case her ult) doesnt do exactly what the team needs they either have to back off and try again next CD cycle or engage a much less desirable fight with even MORE attention to peel, since Ashe's main CC is blown and uneffective.


The point wasn't that they fill the same roles, again you are completely missing it. My point was having a lack luster passive doesn't hold a champ back from being great at their assigned role. In terms of needing peels, proper positioning and kiting, that is every ADC in the game, even those like Ezreal/Corki/etc who have get out of jail free cards need some level of peels, need to pay attention to their positioning and need to know how to kite while prioritizing the proper targets. Does Ashe needs to have a better understanding of it than them? Absolutely, does that make her weaker? No.



Quote:
You didnt point out to me that you can't bring "tons of utility while also doing high amounts of damage." This is a fact of the game as it is now. And, frankly, using the APCs as an example is also somewhat questionable because the vast majority of them rely on burst damage. Blow all CDs and then stay out of harms way until they're back. Doing less burst damage but gaining the defensive abilities or CC is a trade-off but of course they're still viable when their main job is to burst down a single target then walk away. Even if they only did 50% of someone like Cass' damage, they're in and out and then they're effectively a support champ until their CDs are up. On the other hand having to maintain auto attack distance from high value targets, while not getting bursted or CC'd to death, means constant re-evaluation of positioning, target prioritization, and self defense.



Let's look at APCs that bring a ton of utility, the main ones are Morgana, Orianna, Lux, Zyra, and Anivia. Do any of those APCs have the same damage as say Leblanc, Cassiopeia, Gragas, or Katarina? No they don't, but do any of those champs I mentioned have anything close to the utility of the first list? No they don't at most they have maybe an ult that has some CC or maybe a slow but in general they don't come close to the utility provided by the first list. Note those on the first list are all great APCs, and many of the 2nd list are also great APCs. Ashe isn't very different, she isn't going to match Graves/Draven/Corki/etc at damage, but none of them are going to match her team fight presence when it comes to CC, vision, or initiation.

BTW as the ADC you don't target "high priority targets" such as the enemy ADC or APC, you target what is within a safe range, which will normally be the bruisers/assassins/tanks trying to force their way to you. Leave attacking the high priority targets to the divers on your team and just do your job and Ashe will work out a lot better for you.


Quote:
So, in short, giving Ashe a passive that stops working after auto attack #1 means it is useless during every engage. Name another champ that gains 0 benefit from their passive and I'll gladly discuss that.


As I mentioned above Kog'maw really gets nothing out of his passive, unless he has lost, and Renekton simply get an explaination of his resource system where his passive is suppose to be. Ashe isn't the only one with a less than amazing passive but that doesn't hold a champ back.


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Starglow42

Member

02-12-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by SacredMesa View Post
As I mentioned above Kog'maw really gets nothing out of his passive, unless he has lost, and Renekton simply get an explaination of his resource system where his passive is suppose to be. Ashe isn't the only one with a less than amazing passive but that doesn't hold a champ back.
Um.. Kog's passive OFTEN will turn a loss into a tie. That's an incredibly powerful passive.

As for Renekton - His passive is that when he's lower in Health (below 50%) he gains BONUS Fury. A <50% Renekton will dish out more damage than a >50% Renekton, simply do to resource availability. This also means that in a 1v1, if you both hit 50% at the same time, unless you have something extra of your own as well, you will lose.


When making arguments, it only takes a few poor comments (like the one above, from you) - to have people dismiss everything you say.