Do you think Ashe should be give a (small) rework?

No. Absolutely not. She's the Marry Poppins of LoL: Practically perfect in every way. 41 12.58%
I'm on the fence: Ashe is the most awesome but I canít help thinking she could be better... 40 12.27%
Yes. But so small a change that most people wont even notice unless you mention it. 103 31.60%
To heck with SMALL! She's been so overlooked for so long it's like she's been FROZEN... in TIME! 142 43.56%
Voters: 326. You may not vote on this poll

Ashe really does need a (small) rework

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Martyrofsand

Senior Member

02-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cutiecat88 View Post
Except those other ADCs that forgive mistakes exist, so BUFF ASHE!

I love ashe, I just wish she had an escape ability. And her passive should be totally reworked - maybe the current passive + crit chance that very slightly scales with AD?




Or you could just learn to not make mistakes as Ashe. Ashe played correctly is better than an Ezreal played by a guy who depends on that forgiveness, and believe me that sums up the vast majority of Ezreal players, and people who play ADC in general.


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Yhufir

Senior Member

02-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by SacredMesa View Post
Just gonna quote myself from another thread...
I agree she is the quintessential ADC. But that doesn't mean she's perfect. I agree with most people (even those that argue she's perfect but then go on to say...) that her passive "lacks usability."

Name any other ADC who has an ability you would say "lacks usability." If anyone can show me another ADC that has any ability not worth having, I would drop the subject entirely. But the truth of the matter is Ashe has been left in the dust.

I'm not saying she's unusable. Far from it. I'm saying that, all else being equal, Ashe's statistics dont match up with with the rest of the ADC champs (Teemo, Twitch, & Urgot excluded from that community because they're not strictly ADCs). I think a good Ashe can carry just about every game. But that requires a lot more support from her team than ALL of the other ADCs. In S/D-R it's next to impossible to carry consistently.


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Yhufir

Senior Member

02-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by SacredMesa View Post
Or you could just learn to not make mistakes as Ashe. Ashe played correctly is better than an Ezreal played by a guy who depends on that forgiveness, and believe me that sums up the vast majority of Ezreal players, and people who play ADC in general.
For the purpose of these arguments you have to assume the players are of equal talent/skill. Saying "Well as long as you're a much better player, it doesnt matter." is a cop-out.


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Martyrofsand

Senior Member

02-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yhufir View Post
I agree she is the quintessential ADC. But that doesn't mean she's perfect. I agree with most people (even those that argue she's perfect but then go on to say...) that her passive "lacks usability."

Name any other ADC who has an ability you would say "lacks usability." If anyone can show me another ADC that has any ability not worth having, I would drop the subject entirely. But the truth of the matter is Ashe has been left in the dust.

I'm not saying she's unusable. Far from it. I'm saying that, all else being equal, Ashe's statistics dont match up with with the rest of the ADC champs (Teemo, Twitch, & Urgot excluded from that community because they're not strictly ADCs). I think a good Ashe can carry just about every game. But that requires a lot more support from her team than ALL of the other ADCs. In S/D-R it's next to impossible to carry consistently.




Have you looked at Renekton's "passive" you know that thing that is effectively just a big explaination of how his fury mechanic works? Hecarum also has a passive that is pretty much irrelevent for all it does as well. Just because her passive sucks doesn't mean much.



Quote:
For the purpose of these arguments you have to assume the players are of equal talent/skill. Saying "Well as long as you're a much better player, it doesnt matter." is a cop-out.


Then I'll also add this bit as well...

An Ashe played perfectly brings more to the team than an Ezreal played perfectly. She is high risk but also high reward, most people don't want to take that risk.


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Yhufir

Senior Member

02-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by SacredMesa View Post
Have you looked at Renekton's "passive" you know that thing that is effectively just a big explaination of how his fury mechanic works? Hecarum also has a passive that is pretty much irrelevent for all it does as well. Just because her passive sucks doesn't mean much.

Then I'll also add this bit as well...

An Ashe played perfectly brings more to the team than an Ezreal played perfectly. She is high risk but also high reward, most people don't want to take that risk.

You're comparing apples to oranges (as I knew you would so I tried to make it clear). Among the ADCs you dont find that same problem. And it actually does mean a lot.

And, when you say "brings more," you must be talking about utility. Because Ashe doesnt out damage, out attack speed, or out poke any ADC. She brings more utility to a team, without a doubt.

Now dont get me wrong, I love Ashe. I've said it before and I'll keep on saying it; I think she's among the best, specifically for her utility. But I guess I can put it this way: (again, all else being equal) a 1v1 with Ashe is going to lose significantly more than win. And, according to LoLKing.net, Ashe's pick rate is below 10% and win rate hovers just below 50%. Whereas someone like Ezreal is picked above 50% and wins about 50%. The numbers are easy to interepret; Ashe can be good but she's not versatile.

My argument is, one of the reasons she's not as versatile is because she's so relatively underpowered and has (at least) 1 ability that's effectively useless throughout the majority of the game.


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Martyrofsand

Senior Member

02-10-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yhufir View Post
You're comparing apples to oranges (as I knew you would so I tried to make it clear). Among the ADCs you dont find that same problem. And it actually does mean a lot.

And, when you say "brings more," you must be talking about utility. Because Ashe doesnt out damage, out attack speed, or out poke any ADC. She brings more utility to a team, without a doubt.

Now dont get me wrong, I love Ashe. I've said it before and I'll keep on saying it; I think she's among the best, specifically for her utility. But I guess I can put it this way: (again, all else being equal) a 1v1 with Ashe is going to lose significantly more than win. And, according to LoLKing.net, Ashe's pick rate is below 10% and win rate hovers just below 50%. Whereas someone like Ezreal is picked above 50% and wins about 50%. The numbers are easy to interepret; Ashe can be good but she's not versatile.

My argument is, one of the reasons she's not as versatile is because she's so relatively underpowered and has (at least) 1 ability that's effectively useless throughout the majority of the game.




You are missing the point of the comparision of passives. Hecarum's passive is **** and yet he's one of the best jungles in the game right now.

As far as your statistics lets look at real ones instead of those off the top of your head...


Ashe--8.71% she is played, 50.35% of the time she wins.

Ezreal--44.64% he is played, 48.12% of the time he wins.

If you think you have to have an escape to be some kind of awesome let's look at another ADC...

Miss Fortune--30.52% of the time she is played, 55.66% of the time she wins.

Caitlyn--31.02% of the time she is played, 48.73% of the time she wins.


All taken from http://www.lolking.net/champions/

Just because you have a gap closer/escape doesn't make you an amazing ADC, and honestly right now Ezreal gets played a lot because people still think he's as amazing as before his nerfs. While he is good he is no longer the dominate lane bully that wins an insane amount, and actually Ashe currently has a better win rate than he does.

Also MF and Caitlyn one has that gap opener and yet the one without it wins far more than the one with it. Champs don't have to have get out of jail free cards to be amazing, and having steriods doesn't make them amazing either, just look at Tristana's 46.71% win rate.

Knowing how to play a champ, when to play the champ, and how to properly position is huge for any adc. If you know how to do it with Ashe people really can't get to you very effectively, and your ability to AoE snare teams and initiate from anywhere on the map, these things are huge and no other ADC even gets close to them.


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Yhufir

Senior Member

02-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by SacredMesa View Post
You are missing the point of the comparision of passives. Hecarum's passive is **** and yet he's one of the best jungles in the game right now.

As far as your statistics lets look at real ones instead of those off the top of your head...


Ashe--8.71% she is played, 50.35% of the time she wins.

Ezreal--44.64% he is played, 48.12% of the time he wins.

If you think you have to have an escape to be some kind of awesome let's look at another ADC...

Miss Fortune--30.52% of the time she is played, 55.66% of the time she wins.

Caitlyn--31.02% of the time she is played, 48.73% of the time she wins.


All taken from http://www.lolking.net/champions/

Just because you have a gap closer/escape doesn't make you an amazing ADC, and honestly right now Ezreal gets played a lot because people still think he's as amazing as before his nerfs. While he is good he is no longer the dominate lane bully that wins an insane amount, and actually Ashe currently has a better win rate than he does.

Also MF and Caitlyn one has that gap opener and yet the one without it wins far more than the one with it. Champs don't have to have get out of jail free cards to be amazing, and having steriods doesn't make them amazing either, just look at Tristana's 46.71% win rate.

Knowing how to play a champ, when to play the champ, and how to properly position is huge for any adc. If you know how to do it with Ashe people really can't get to you very effectively, and your ability to AoE snare teams and initiate from anywhere on the map, these things are huge and no other ADC even gets close to them.
Not so hot with the reading, are you?
I used the stats from lolking, as I stated, tyvm
I never argued for an escape mech, you're thinking of someone else. I never argued for a steroid either.

I'm not missing the point of the comparison. You compared Ashe to Hecarim. That's just stupid. They're not similar in any way, except that they both exist in this game. That's on the same track as comparing keyboards to mice: Completely different functions, exceptionally different play styles, entirely different setups, and practically unrelated mechanics. The question before you is whether or not you agree with making a small change to Ashe. It doesn't matter, specifically, what the change is. Do you think she should get a slight change in her abilities?

When you look at those number we COULD assume that if Ashe was picked 500% more often she would win at the same rate (~50%). But I don't think you, or anyone here, is fool enough to believe that if Ashe was played more she would win just as often.


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Martyrofsand

Senior Member

02-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yhufir View Post
Not so hot with the reading, are you?
I used the stats from lolking, as I stated, tyvm
I never argued for an escape mech, you're thinking of someone else. I never argued for a steroid either.

I'm not missing the point of the comparison. You compared Ashe to Hecarim. That's just stupid. They're not similar in any way, except that they both exist in this game. That's on the same track as comparing keyboards to mice: Completely different functions, exceptionally different play styles, entirely different setups, and practically unrelated mechanics. The question before you is whether or not you agree with making a small change to Ashe. It doesn't matter, specifically, what the change is. Do you think she should get a slight change in her abilities?

When you look at those number we COULD assume that if Ashe was picked 500% more often she would win at the same rate (~50%). But I don't think you, or anyone here, is fool enough to believe that if Ashe was played more she would win just as often.




Your stats for Ashe where close. Yohr assertion for Ezreal that he is picked in 50% of games and wins the same not so much, hense the pulling numbers out of your head. Those stats I pulled where from lolking as I linked and if you actually used it you would of seen the same stars I did.

You are missing the point of comparision between Ashe and Hecarum because they are more similiar than you realize. Both have lackluster passives, neither deals amazing damage, both depend on their team to keep them alive(hec depends on their damage to feed his w ashe needs their peels), both are great at catching/preventing runners, and both have completly game changing ults that win team fights. When you bring all that you dont need much else.

In terms of changes to her right now no I dont. Maybe one day down the road a change to make her get more out of crit since that seems to be the direction riot wants but right now I like her where she is.


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Yhufir

Senior Member

02-11-2013

Try sorting for NA plat players only. Then tell your team to focus the pony before the ADC.

You can't judge "perfect" Ashe play by arguing her win rate across all skill levels. The same way you cant judge Hec's kit against Ashe's kit because they are practically playing 2 different games.

And why doesnt Ashe deal amazing damage? She's an ADC. Her job is damage. Yes, there will always be ADCs who can out-scale her DPS. But the margin shouldnt be so noticable that we pick and win with an Ashe less than 1/5th the amount we win with other ADCs.

Hec is a terrible example anyways. His passive is that he ignores collision and gains AD based on AS. I would take that passive on Ashe _ANY_ day.

Edit: Try swapping those passives. Have Ashe take Hecarim's and Hec take Ashe's. Then come talk about Hecarim's passive being "lackluster"


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Xarue

Senior Member

02-11-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by GiottoXIII View Post
i think she could use an escape mechanic but that's about it no point in reworking a very viable champion and a counter against a lot of aggressive short ranged carries... also i dont see particularly any problem with her ratios so yeah the only rework imo needs to be an escape mechanic maybe something like nautilus's anchor ashe could have a short range rope hook to dash to friendly minions/ walls/etc... (not a reliable escape mechanic but whatevs ... )
yeah i agree, all she needs is an escape ability like a dash as shown in her art but for some reason poeple who dont even play her thinks she dont need anything, strang huh.