Discuss this with me, please. (3 game streak, just like this)

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Snepif

Senior Member

02-03-2013

You are forgetting something essential. There is a chance that the bad players are on the other team as well, and if you are good, the are only 4 slots for "bad players" remaining in your team, and FIVE in theirs. Because of this, it's actually more likely that the "noobs" are on the enemy team. You can have bad teammates of course, but if you play long enough, and you are good, you'll eventually be matched MORE times against bad players (and win) than with bad players on your team (and lose) - because of what i explained earlier about the "slots".

This is why the elo really works, but it only works nicely on the long run. You gotta play hundreds of matches to know your real elo, because one or two troll matches don't mean anything.


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mendeleyev

Senior Member

02-03-2013

remember, since you were mid, you probably need to roam.

You said you pinged, did you go to help, or did you just ping and hope they got away?

We can do everything, but I promise you, you forgot something.

Myself included. over 1000 games, and I learn more everyday. You know what I do sometimes while I am driving? Just think about strategies. Think about this game, get the LOLREPLAY program and watch your games. Think about what you could have done.

Maybe you couldn't have won, but you could still have performed better. I promise.

Best of luck. I am still in your position, but I think we always need to be reminded that there is always room to improve.


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Planets Cubed

Senior Member

02-03-2013

Ok, i totally agree with you on the fact that people should be judged INDIVIDUALLY rather than just wins and losses.

In another post i went over how these could be implemented but others just went on about how that would be a compensation system rather than a good ranking system. Heres the link: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=3081572

But all in all i agree that something should be done about this and one of the things is how SC2 does it: they match people of the same rank up with each other and if they aren't within the same tier the system doesn't hold that to them if they lose to platinums while they are silvers. But like what many others are saying, k/d/a isn't everything, win/loss is the main thing that determines where you are ranked but oh how i wish it would be more complicated than that.


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Sydrian

Member

02-03-2013

Also... What is Elobuff? I haven't heard of that.

[EDIT] Actual response.

I don't doubt I could've performed better than I did. That obviously couldn't have been my best performance. At the same time, I can't have carry scores when the enemy has a massive lead. I was roaming as well. I nearly stole their blue, and I ambushed their jungle once before things got out of hand. The two standing deaths I had were rescues that the people I protected squandered by turning back into the fray. The only reason I didn't continue to make sacrifice rescues, was because it wasn't paying to do so. I don't think I'm the sharpest tool out there, but I am very capable.

(Large response, and @Notsosuperman )

How much of the conversation did you read? What it seems to me that you're saying is, I am being judged individually, but in order for the game to judge me accurately, I need to subject myself to a larger volume of games... The problem is, it can't reflect me accurately if situations like the one portrayed at the start of this thread continue to happen, with the frequency they happen. As I said... from the sample size I've provided, that's 75% of my games. If you want me to go from my actual history of sample size... It's closer to 70% of my games in ranked run like this. How... If over 70% of my lower Elo games don't actually reflect my ability correctly(I.e. 70% of my ranked play is input that corrupts the Elo formula), will a larger volume of play correct that? Fundamentally, the largest factor to your Elo, is team win or team loss in solo queue; And allow me to clarify, I don't win 20% of my games. I win about 60-70% of all my games right now... But I think only 25-30% of them accurately apply to the formula Riot's team has designed, because in most other situations, either enemy teams, or my teams... Will be severely mismatched.

Get past the win/loss thing, This isn't QQ, so don't treat it like it is. First post was an angry post, because I was angry... But I am still looking for an actual discussion and I'm calmer now. Like I said earlier in this thread, I want to climb as far as I can, legitimately. And I don't have the time to sink 1000 games just to reach what you think is accurate Elo, in order to 'start' actually gaining Elo. You're saying I'll need 1500-2000 or 3000 games in ranked to actually see progress... and if 70% of the data being fed into my Elo formula is bad or corrupted by this mismatching, what you're saying... Will NOT work. Maybe you've been more fortunate than me, several of my friends... Most of the outraged community that hates the rank system... But what I've seen, since the inception of the ranking system, since public beta, is that matchmaker is flawed, and players pay when those flaws express themselves. I don't care if I don't make it far up the ladder, what I care about... Is that when I climbed that ladder, no matter how hard or bitter the climb was, I care that I climbed it efficiently, and with accuracy; That it wasn't a matter of luck to climb out of the swamp of crud that is the flaws in the machine.

[EDIT] I'll tell you what... If you really want me to take a scientific sample size, I will run 100 ranked games, during game prime time; But if I do that... this won't be a discussion anymore. It will be a declaration of facts. I will record every single one of the sample games, I will post all their information, and I will identify games that corrupt Elo rating. I could actually go find a 3rd party to process the info and determine which games are corrupting the data. I bet there's a person out there, who in the name of knowing would volunteer.

The biggest thing here though, is that if that corruption % exceeds 50... It means that no matter how many games a player plays, if they climb from low ranks, it's luck. Your argument is volume, for that to be right... the corruption % must be less than 50. To be clear... Games that corrupt the data would be landslide games, such as the example posted at the start. That clearly doesn't reflect my ability as a player accurately, nor does it reflect any other member, because the match wasn't of people that were closely skilled.


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NotSoSuperMan

Member

02-03-2013

The funny thing is the new ranking system was meant to stop all of this QQ.

You ARE judged individually. Your Elo reflects how well your presence on a team contributes to a win for your team.

You have an Elo rating which contributes to your teams average Elo. The opposing team has an average Elo. If your teams average is higher than the enemies then you will be rewarded a small amount of Elo for a win and lose a large amount for a loss. Vice versa if your average is lower.

For this system to fail it requires you to consistently be placed into games where your teammates have Elo significantly higher than they should be or your opponents Elo are significantly lower than they should be.

This won't happen.

If you are stuck at a given Elo (or division) it is because you are not getting better. Pick a weakness in your game (You DO have some) and work on it and your rating will improve.


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Desperate Izzy

Senior Member

02-03-2013

ok 1st of all, you can't be judged individually because it's a team game, what's the point of you being able to get 27/0/0 and not win? the game isn't about how many times you kill, die, or assist, it's about how well you do in taking down turrets, inhibitors, and the nexus. it's about how well you can coordinate with your teams, it's about testing your skill by pairing you up with "noobs," and it's about determining if no matter what your team has, you can lead them to victory. with all this being said, here are some tips to help you out:

1) make sure you are the carry, this will improve your chance of actually winning, no point in having a carry that can't lead the team to victory

2) take objectives; buffs, dragon, neutral camps, etc. the game isn't just about how many kills you can get, it's also about how well you can take advantage of buffs, extra gold opportunities, etc.

3) get fed. sure it seems easy to say, but if you wanna win you must be able to get fed, and not just hold your own weight. most of the time people complain about getting a ****ty team, yet they can only hold their own weight (don't worry that's still me)

4) learn to control/dominate your lane. if you have really good lane control you will get fed, have the most gold, and be able to assist lanes that need ganking, and still come back to your lane with a struggling opposition who's stuck calling MIA's to their team and is afraid to follow.

5) SPAM Ping. i know it may seem annoying, but if you can annoy your teammates from initiating from a 3 v 5 and keep the game from being thrown by all means do so!

6) Ward. not only for yourself, but also for your teammates if they're already not doing so

7) Focus on their carry...if you're focusing on their tank, i will guarantee you, you will not win, make sure you are the initiator, and make sure your team knows who to focus, lots of times people at low elo get nervous, they lose their cool, and they attack the opposition with the most health (the tank) without them knowing it, it sometimes happens to us too.

8) keep your composure, and be positive, NO MATTER WHAT!!! people don't understand these "noobs" have feelings...if they're already feeding you raging at them won't make them any better, you telling them what item to get, what target to focus on, and to stick with you will!

anyways, i'm no pro, i'm still learning these tips, i can't carry, and as a result i too have been dragged down to low elo play. but when you learn to carry, it'll be much easier for you to climb elo hell.


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DragnDave

Senior Member

02-03-2013

My problem with this is I go on a hot streak and win 4 in a row. I get in upgrade series. I can't win 2/3, it's like the two times I've gotten on a series to upgrade, were the few games I actually do get trolled. So leading up to that series, I get great teammates, we all communicate and work together, and then BAM! It's series time, here's your idiots.


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Desperate Izzy

Senior Member

02-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by DragnDave View Post
My problem with this is I go on a hot streak and win 4 in a row. I get in upgrade series. I can't win 2/3, it's like the two times I've gotten on a series to upgrade, were the few games I actually do get trolled. So leading up to that series, I get great teammates, we all communicate and work together, and then BAM! It's series time, here's your idiots.
i have the same problem, i was in the >1200's elo, close to >1300, then right when i needed to win one to go to 1300, i got the main idiots, unitl one day i got a streak of idiots and i was dragged down to <1100 fml T_T


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Sydrian

Member

02-03-2013

@DragnDave/Busy Izzy

How does doing that, fix the problem that still remains, at the core of this conversation? How does it fix this problem, that's been in place, since ranked began? Sure one could climb out if they did those things and played like that... But it doesn't confront or resolve this problem. It avoids it.

[Edit] Obviously adhering to the code is always important.


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Seminole Sun

Senior Member

02-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snepif View Post
You are forgetting something essential. There is a chance that the bad players are on the other team as well, and if you are good, the are only 4 slots for "bad players" remaining in your team, and FIVE in theirs. Because of this, it's actually more likely that the "noobs" are on the enemy team. You can have bad teammates of course, but if you play long enough, and you are good, you'll eventually be matched MORE times against bad players (and win) than with bad players on your team (and lose) - because of what i explained earlier about the "slots".

This is why the elo really works, but it only works nicely on the long run. You gotta play hundreds of matches to know your real elo, because one or two troll matches don't mean anything.
This is a really good point. You are the only common thread in your games. Yes, that's cold comfort in any individual game. But over the long run you will be in the place you should be.

The problem with basing on performance is that it would require a different scoring algorithm based on role. Heck, even within a role, it would be different for different champions. I frequently go 2/6/20 with Malphite because I build tanky enough to survive awhile but enough AP that I can't be ignored. So I'm happy to die in a team fight in which we got 1-3 or 1-4 because I made a clutch initiate.

And once you score differently based on role, you lock in a specific meta. Can't play two ADCs. What about a double jungle? Nope. All out the window.

The other problem is that your k/d/a is a pretty bad indicator of how good you are at League. I suppose it's a good indicator (along with CS) of one type of ability but there's so much it doesn't measure. On top of that, it would encourage more bad habits. Solo queue already has enough people that focus exclusively on themselves. Adding a further incentive for that behavior is not a positive change.

I'd like to see IP be rewarded partially based on your performance, however. I think it would take some of the sting out of a rough loss when you found yourself with 300 IP instead of 150.


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