Discuss this with me, please. (3 game streak, just like this)

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Sydrian

Member

02-03-2013

So... To hold my division status, this was my match result. (I've been dealing with this, for 2 days.

They are lucky I didn't record this, because I would've posted it, had I been doing so.

And before anyone asks, I have been pushed out of my division, as of this game.

Time Elapsed: 24 Minutes, 35 seconds. Loss by Surrender

Teamscore 8/26/7

Mid Lane

Anivia(Me): 1 kill, 2 deaths, 5 assists, 105 creep kills.

Bot Support

NIdalee: 0 Kills, 7 deaths, 0 Assists, 31 creep kills.

Attack Damage Carry

Graves: 0 kills, 5 deaths, 0 assists, 92 creep kills.

Jungle

Nocturne: 1 kill, 7 deaths, 2 assists, 85 Creep kills.

Top solo

Garen: 6 kills, 5 deaths, 0 assists, 75 creep kills.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Teamscore 26/8/34

Enemy team

Mid Lane

Swain: 2 kills, 2 deaths, 8 assists, 108 creep kills.

Bot Support

Katarina: 3 kills, 1 death, 10 assists, 40 creep kills.

Attack Damage Carry

Talon: 7 kills, 1 death, 4 assists, 106 creep kills

Jungle

Xin Zhao: 8 kills, 2 deaths, 9 assists, 60 creep kills

Top Solo

Jax: 6 Kills, 2 deaths, 3 assists. 121 creep kills.
================================================== ===============

[EDIT] As you can plainly see, the enemy team was superior in ALMOST every single aspect of play. I was one of few, if not then the only one supplying the enemy team with matched competition; And obviously my score suffers when the enemy team has advantages... Like a 20 kill lead. And before you begin reading this, understand I don't/didn't rage in game. I placed wards, pinged, warned players of impending attacks. That they didn't act on the knowledge I had given them, is their action/discretion; And also because I don't single others out, I am not giving other summoner's names.

And Riot expects us to win 3 out of 5 in a series to promote in this? Look at how stacked this is against us! Explain this to me... How is the rating system balanced when it is based fundamentally on win/loss and these kinds of matches are possible? How do the 0/7/0 and 0/5/0 and 1/7/2 make it into my matches? It is my position that K/d/a should be the fundamental measure of a player, not win/loss; Because all it takes is one, and I repeat that... ONE player, to cost an entire team a match in a high tension game, and what happens to the other 4? Doesn't matter how good they are, how well they performed, in this engine, they lose points; And you see what matchmaker gave me, 3 of those lax players. Three, in a game I couldn't afford to lose no less; And I would just love for someone to have the guts to say my team was the favored team here.

Anyone else have thoughts about what they see here? Can they make sense of it? Because I can't, I've been trying to make logical sense of their win/loss fundaments since open beta, and you know what... I can't, and Until I can... I think I won't be spending anymore money on this game. It's as if all these bad players have just attached anchors to my wallet and I can't seem to lift it from my pocket.

Now I'm not suggesting that others do this too, I'm just saying, it's what I'm gonna do.

I really wanna see how everyone reacts to this, and I want to hear thoughts/explanations. I want to ascend the ladder, and I don't want to be handed it, I want to earn it. I want to know, that my status on that ladder, is purely crafted from my own ability, not handed me because of exploits, not handed me because of pity, and certainly not handed me because I had to find quality people to ride all the way up the ladder. I want to climb that ladder, and earn that success; And development has just coated that ladder in lubricant from day one and left it that way, like some kind of sick child's prank that never ends. Hiding the Elo system doesn't make people like me less aware of it either.

Really glad I'm earning all that honor though. Whew... Thank god for that honor, What a consolation prize!

For the love of god, does anyone else out there feel the way I feel about this? I could really use something, anything to help me find joy in the competitive play, because I'm not about to just play 1000 games so I can win 250 of them... and still be stuck at the bottom because of conditions I have NO control over. And every time I play it's like this... 2-3 well matched games, with actual tension and true joy-inducing competition, immersed inside a 10 game streak of misery. That is the experience development has given me.

There you have it... My thoughts on League's Ranked play, anyone have anything to add/argue?


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Your Grace

Member

02-03-2013

Well, riot doesn't care about people in ELO hell that don't deserve to be there, they don't even want to think about implementing a system basing elo losses/gains based on how well you do, it's not like people would try harder or anything!


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Sydrian

Member

02-03-2013

See, at this point, I'd like to add... If this was a deserved loss, a high tension loss(Where people were closely matched) because we were outplayed, because the enemy team was superior, I wouldn't be angry, I wouldn't even be here... I'd be there... Playing until I was too tired to play; That's not the case, this wasn't closely matched, this wasn't even distantly matched. This was massacre.

It's not Elo hell I care about here... It's the game, it's just the experience. Don't misunderstand, Elo hell is important here, it's a symptom; Because rankings tell me, "This game matters." They tell every single player out to prove themselves that; How can the gameplay mean something if the engine behind it doesn't emphasize a single player's capability. I clarify that by saying that obviously the in game balance mechanics aren't what needs looking at. The fundamental mechanics are what needs looking at. Something as cut and dry as team win, vs. team loss... Just doesn't work for solo/duo queue. Solo/duos measure individuals, would it be so hard, to seperate the way solo/duos measure from ranked 5s, by making them about k/d/a s? Ranked 5s are clearly still about winning, I understand that and I'm fine with that, that's an organized team if a pre-made team loses, everyone deserves it, because they chose to band together as a team.

[EDIT] The real issue here, is of course... roles. If you apply solo/duo queue k/d/a to measuring players, then you need to figure out how to measure roles and their scores. That's probably what they haven't figured out, assuming... They ARE looking at doing that. They've had 3+ years to figure this out however... And it's not all that complicated.


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MileHighJew

Senior Member

02-03-2013

My team: 21/40/33
Enemy team: 40/21/60

No one on my team had more kills than deaths. No one on the enemy team had more deaths than kills.

Who won? My team did. Why?

My team: 10 towers 6 inhibs (respawn)
Enemy team: 0 towers, 0 inhibs

So, how does the new system reward in this game if it was Ranked (was Normal)? Would the losing team get better in LP points because none of them were feeders and they all had positive KDR?

Sorry, the Elo rating system worked on wins and losses and that's all that really matters. The new system goes by what again?

For those that have EloBuff: https://elobuff.com/games/na-691937723


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Sydrian

Member

02-03-2013

@ MilehighBrew

I doubt, with that situation, that you had 2 people with 0/X/0 scores.

I have also participated in flipped victories like that before as well, and admittedly, there is nothing quite like an underdog score victory. That typically requires that the players know what they're doing / have a strong sense of strategy. The games I suffered in were clearly higher skill players against low skill players. As I said... I was warding and alerting players to imminent enemy approach. I also pinged when oppurtunities to steal things, (golems, lizards) cropped up because of my ward coverage.

The system works at higher tiers because those players have reached the point where low tier players have been sifted out.


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Insult

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

02-03-2013

You got out played stop being so butt hurt.


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MileHighJew

Senior Member

02-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sydrian View Post
@ MilehighBrew
I have also participated in flipped victories like that before as well, and admittedly, there is nothing quite like an underdog score victory.
Not a flipped victory. The other team didn't get one turret. We were never an underdog just because of kills.

This isn't a Deathmatch and I don't care if people have a high KDR. People shouldn't be rewarded for it. It's about destroying the enemy Nexus. I understood Elo. I don't understand this new system to even point out the flaws or says what is good about.


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Sleipnir of Hel

Senior Member

02-03-2013

Had a game recently where our entire team was feeding. Our jungler got invaded, we gave up two early deaths during it, enemy jungler would gank seemingly non-stop while our jungler just tried to catch up. Our towers fell, enemy team got baron, and we got pushed to our inhibitors.

We won that match. I don't see how you can't win your matches. Game isn't about killing. The only thing that matters is that nexus.


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Sydrian

Member

02-03-2013

I don't think you're getting what I'm trying to say here... I know the endgame is to nail the nexus. I can't control the actions of 4 other people. You can throw me situations, and I believe they happen. What you should look at, is the sample size I threw at you. out of 4 games, I got 1, and I functioned appropriately as a player. I warded, pinged, called missing players, alerted allies of impending attacks. Created and called out opportunities that could have/should have been claimed.

I want you to explain to me, how I'm supposed to climb the ladder, when fundamentally... it's based on whether or not the team wins, the system measures me based on that, and my sample size in this instance(this thread) is 4 games, 3 of which featured a minimum of 2 players who clearly didn't belong matched with myself or others in the game based on their skills/capability as league players. The high kda/r I'm talking about is a suggestion to better differentiate the capability of players. It would probably be a more effective measurement lower in the ladder, until higher in the ladder, where skill levels between all participants are considerably less turbulent. At that point, win/loss could become more important. This isn't an issue players upwards of 'say' gold class probably would be capable of relating to. Because they clearly aren't having the problem(and if so, it's not as frequent), players of silver or lower have.

As for me... I analyze things closely in games. You do that when you are trying to get into game development. I watch what my enemies do, I watch what my allies do, and I do everything in my power to improve things for my team.

Deaths, kills, and assists happen in every game, towers, inhibitors, they happen in every game. When teams are closely matched for their abilities and capabilities, these numbers are closer together. With matchmaker functioning the way it is supposed to, every game, should be a close game.

Milehigh's game for instance.
"My team: 21/40/33 "
"Enemy team: 40/21/60"

What I observe here, is that miles team had significant assists occuring, it's plain to see... Because
the assists and kills, exceed deaths. The enemy team also performed well in battle based on these same numbers. When both teams do well, the team with a better strategy, wins; because head to head battles end as closely as they do. I'd wager miles team had a lot of sacrifice style kills/assists/defends if they held all their towers and inhibs; This could easily explain how even with a k/d advantage, miles team won.

Another possible occurence in that particular game, could have been that miles team had better ward coverage, and spent the game pressuring the undefended points in the enemy lanes, taking ground and giving up kills to the enemy during retreat. The enemy loses in that scenario, because they waste huge amounts of time moving between push and defend. That's why split push can win.

My point here is... It's plain to see that Miles team was capable, and fairly well matched based on the numbers of that game. What's plain to see in my game, is that my team is not well matched, as one team was considerably more capable than the other. One person cannot make a difference against 5 whom possess comparable skill without a team. Ergo, I cannot climb the ladder, if it functions this way, because based on the sample I've taken, 75% of my games, it will not matter how much effort I put into it, how well I perform or act to help my allies perform. The sample size tells me, that 75% of the time, I will be matched with/against a group so poorly matched to its opponents, that one of the teams, will lose without competitive resistance, regardless of my efforts/abilities. That 75%, carries numbers similar to these.

A pattern, is a pattern, and to someone who reads between 5-12 moves ahead... The outlook, is bleak.

@Insult. That's constructive, down-voted, ignoring what you have to say.

[EDIT] I appreciate the time you're spending to talk to me about this guys.

[Second EDIT] Now that I'm calmer, I'll be less erratic. Arams are so good for calming the nerves. Plenty of amusement regardless of how things go.


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workthecorners

Senior Member

02-03-2013

I think they should add in a score that takes kda into account. it should not by any means be the only score that matters but along with elo i think it would help alot with people who have skill but are stuck with bad teams.

Downfall to this is i have played with many selfish adn arrogant players who get good scores and sometimes we win and sometimes we lose but i can tell that this person is not a team player they are just good at their champ and got ahead and snowballed


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